Discussion:
Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
(too old to reply)
stepharo
2016-03-02 13:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys

I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions
with Serge Stinckwich.
Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
thanks*** Didier.

We would like to do several things:

- Work on "Hows to"
The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and
the math is too large :)
so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)

- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
This morning we started to implement a
ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
objects available in SciPharo.
Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that
we can plug other distribution for having
controlled random number.

- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this
mail :)
Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
So tell us :)

Hernan ??
Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
Vincent: covariance? CPA?
Philippe: times series
Serge R frames?
Sami: Better random number and various distributions?

- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
September with a recording session.
Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.

- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with
a better cover and title :)


Stef
stepharo
2016-03-02 13:33:58 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys

I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions
with Serge Stinckwich.
Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
thanks*** Didier.

We would like to do several things:

- Work on "Hows to"
The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and
the math is too large :)
so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)

- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
This morning we started to implement a
ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
objects available in SciPharo.
Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that
we can plug other distribution for having
controlled random number.

- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this
mail :)
Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
So tell us :)

Hernan ??
Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
Vincent: covariance? CPA?
Philippe: times series
Serge R frames?
Sami: Better random number and various distributions?

- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
September with a recording session.
Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.

- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with
a better cover and title :)


Stef
Tudor Girba
2016-03-02 13:41:19 UTC
Permalink
This is great news!

I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.

Cheers,
Doru



> On Mar 2, 2016, at 2:33 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
>
>

--
www.tudorgirba.com
www.feenk.com

"Obvious things are difficult to teach."
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-02 13:56:36 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
> This is great news!
>
> I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.

Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Nicolas Cellier
2016-03-02 18:11:00 UTC
Permalink
SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
What is so much pharo specific in this library?
Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com>:

> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
> > This is great news!
> >
> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>
> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
Paul DeBruicker
2016-03-02 18:09:46 UTC
Permalink
+1


Nicolas Cellier wrote
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich &lt;

> serge.stinckwich@

> &gt;:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba &lt;

> tudor@

> &gt; wrote:
>> > This is great news!
>> >
>> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>>
>> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Call-about-Numerical-Methods-in-Pharo-tp4881998p4882033.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-02 18:43:18 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?

We can think of a more neutral name.
Any idea for a new name ?

Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Nicolas Cellier
2016-03-04 07:54:42 UTC
Permalink
Could you use a metacello configuration named SciPharo composed of packaged
that you would pick from a more neutral repository?

2016-03-04 8:28 GMT+01:00 Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <
pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>:

>
>
> ---------- Message transféré ----------
> From: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>
> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:27:45 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical
> Methods in Smalltalk?
>
> That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will
> always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere!
>
> The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com>
> *To:* Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> > What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> We can think of a more neutral name.
> Any idea for a new name ?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
>
>
>
stepharo
2016-03-04 20:10:15 UTC
Permalink
We are changing the code and removing mistakes (except if you prefer to
have double initialization for example).
We are maintaining the book and we will produce a new.
So focus on the good energy and our world will get much better.


Le 4/3/16 08:32, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev a écrit :
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-05 01:15:04 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:29 PM, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <
pharo-***@lists.pharo.org> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>
> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Cc:
> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 07:27:45 +0000 (UTC)
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Why just don't we honor Didier H. Besset and leave it as it was, Numerical
> Methods in Smalltalk?
>
> That way, regardless of your favorite Smalltalk implementation, there will
> always be a "Numerical Methods in Smalltalk" package somewhere!
>
> The same way there's no GlorpPharo : it's Glorp everywhere!
>

+1


>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com>
> *To:* Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:43 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 7:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> > What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> > Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> We can think of a more neutral name.
> Any idea for a new name ?
>
> Regards,
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
>
>
>


--
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot
Alexandre Bergel
2016-03-04 18:51:55 UTC
Permalink
I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much better in my opinion
PhaNum is also okay to me.

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



> On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com <mailto:***@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
> > This is great news!
> >
> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>
> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/ <http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/>
>
>
Nicolas Cellier
2016-03-04 19:44:07 UTC
Permalink
2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:

> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> better in my opinion
> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>
>
SciSmalltalk is ugly.
Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
SciSmalltalk is just:
- an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
- a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

If you name the Metacello configuration SciPharo, it's OK,
because it does not really exclude any goodwill contributing from another
Smalltalk flavour.

If you name the repositories SciPharo, you start tainting a bit more... But
well.



> Alexandre
> --
> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
>
>
>
> On Mar 2, 2016, at 3:11 PM, Nicolas Cellier <
> ***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
>> > This is great news!
>> >
>> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>>
>> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time series.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>
>
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-04 20:14:23 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>
>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>> better in my opinion
>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>
>
> SciSmalltalk is ugly.

I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !

> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
> SciSmalltalk is just:
> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)

SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Ben Coman
2016-03-05 15:22:14 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>
>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>> better in my opinion
>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>
>>
>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>
> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !

Just a random line of thought...
PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
--> numqi "An energy around numbers"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

cheers -ben

>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>
> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-05 15:32:51 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>
>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>> better in my opinion
>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>
>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>
> Just a random line of thought...
> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi

Nice !

Any other ideas ?

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Ben Coman
2016-03-05 16:59:06 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> Nice !
>
> Any other ideas ?

Well, since you asked... Another approach is to consider who the
biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would
like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz. From
a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme &
Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk. We have
similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I
reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code
and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine
code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar
one-stop-shop as described in [2].

So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should
*first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be
provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover
the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4].
So.... maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia,
Rhomia } -- these being a selection of variations with high
goognique**. However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the
credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about
punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational. The
research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite
beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a
*friendly* way.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language)
[2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set
[4] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-programming-language-refer-to

** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".
Ben Coman
2016-03-05 17:21:28 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 11:32 PM, Serge Stinckwich
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>
>> Nice !
>>
>> Any other ideas ?
>
> Well, since you asked... Another approach is to consider who the
> biggest competitor is - the one you'd like to be compared to and would
> like to beat. Maybe its Julia(?), which currently got some buzz. From
> a cursory skim, its multiple dispatch, dynamic typing and Scheme &
> Common Lisp influences [1] somewhat echoes Smalltalk. We have
> similar facility as [2] to already inspect method bytecode and I
> reckon we might(?) be able to provide a view of the JITed machine code
> and might(?) be possible someday be able to hand-tune that machine
> code, which would be good to promote our system as a similar
> one-stop-shop as described in [2].
>
> So... along the philosophy that when a fight is starting, you should
> *first* punch the *biggest* guy on the nose... you could be
> provocative and name it Gaston or Fatou [3], except then I discover
> the Julia name apparently has nothing to do with Julia Sets [4].
> So.... maybe Julia --> Juliet --> Romeo --> { Romiio, Romiea, Romiia,
> Rhomia } -- these being a selection of variations with high
> goognique**. However, on the one hand, we'd need to gain the
> credibility to back this up, but on the other hand, its not just about
> punching some on the nose... such naming can be aspirational. The
> research presented by Jim Collins in"Good To Great" advises its quite
> beneficial to have an adversary you can compete against in a
> *friendly* way.
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_(programming_language)
> [2] http://www.evanmiller.org/why-im-betting-on-julia.html
> [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_set
> [4] http://stackoverflow.com/questions/29290780/what-does-the-name-of-julia-the-programming-language-refer-to
>
> ** My this instant newly contrived portmanteau for "google unique".

And btw, it might be good to pick the eyes out of this discussion on
Julia for points where do (or will) align and use similar language to
promote our Numqi/Abacii system.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7109982

cheers -ben
Laszlo Zsolt Kiss
2016-03-05 19:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Hello.

NumSt is good name, maybe ☺

Best regards

Laszlo Zsolt
2016.03.05. 16:34 ezt írta ("Serge Stinckwich" <***@gmail.com
>):

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
> >>>>
> >>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
> >>>> better in my opinion
> >>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
> >>
> >> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
> >
> > Just a random line of thought...
> > PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> > --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> Nice !
>
> Any other ideas ?
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-05 15:34:31 UTC
Permalink
I was thinking as this name : Abacus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
A calculating tool !

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>
>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>> better in my opinion
>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>
>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>
>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>
> Just a random line of thought...
> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>
> cheers -ben
>
>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>
>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>



--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-03-05 15:44:16 UTC
Permalink
> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !

I like that one (BTW, thanks for doing this project, Serge & Co, these higher level, domain specific projects are really very important)

> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>
>> cheers -ben
>>
>>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
Yuriy Tymchuk
2016-03-05 15:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Or we can use the name from other languages like Liczydło in Polish :)

> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !
>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>
>> cheers -ben
>>
>>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-05 15:51:31 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Yuriy Tymchuk <***@me.com> wrote:
> Or we can use the name from other languages like Liczydło in Polish :)

I have some Polish ancestors, but I'm not sure people will remember
the name of the project ;-)

>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 16:34, Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
>> A calculating tool !
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>>>
>>>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>
>



--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-05 16:57:03 UTC
Permalink
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
> A calculating tool !

Good!

>
> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>
>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>
>> Just a random line of thought...
>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>
>> cheers -ben
>>
>>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>>
>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
Ben Coman
2016-03-05 17:08:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:57 AM, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 7:34 AM, Serge Stinckwich <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was thinking as this name : Abacus
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus
>> A calculating tool !
>
> Good!

But "abacus" --> 18,000,000 results, is not goognique.

Maybe a variation "abacii" --> 2,800 results, as in "more than one
calculating tool".

cheers -ben

>>
>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:22 PM, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 4:14 AM, Serge Stinckwich
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 8:44 PM, Nicolas Cellier
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-03-04 19:51 GMT+01:00 Alexandre Bergel <***@me.com>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I personally never liked the name “SciSmalltalk”. “SciPharo” is much
>>>>>> better in my opinion
>>>>>> PhaNum is also okay to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> SciSmalltalk is ugly.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like the name either. We will find a better sexy name !
>>>
>>> Just a random line of thought...
>>> PhaNum --> NumPha --> numcha --> numchi
>>> --> numqi "An energy around numbers"
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>>>
>>>>> Currently, there is no package named SciSmalltalk.
>>>>> SciSmalltalk is just:
>>>>> - an aggregate of packages (a metacello configuration)
>>>>> - a repository (github + Smalltalkhub)
>>>>
>>>> SciSmalltalk is a bit more than just a few packages ...
>>>> We have tests, we have a CI job, we have a book.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Serge Stinckwich
>>>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>>>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>>>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
>> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
>> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>>
>
stepharo
2016-03-04 20:08:06 UTC
Permalink
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace.
Yes this looks like a
smart move.
There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about
ruby and swift)
so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
programming!!



Stef
>
> 2016-03-02 14:56 GMT+01:00 Serge Stinckwich
> <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>>:
>
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:41 PM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com
> <mailto:***@tudorgirba.com>> wrote:
> > This is great news!
> >
> > I would be interested in time series and distributions as well.
>
> Distributions are already there. I start some early work on time
> series.
>
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
>
>
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-05 01:18:57 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:

>
> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>
> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
> this looks like a
> smart move.
> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
> and swift)
> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
> programming!!
>

When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.

C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to
rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.

Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further,
Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be
ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.

Offended,
Eliot
stepharo
2016-03-05 08:10:58 UTC
Permalink
You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the
same.
Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
Do you think that people do not know how to count?
In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
python, java, c#, lua, ...

Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our
language and do node.js.
Seriously.
Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can
tell you.
I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a
good opportunity.
Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility
of our system
I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
Afterall I may be wrong.
Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to
stay with old friends
just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole
that does not want to
promote smalltalk.


Stef

Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr
> <mailto:***@free.fr>> wrote:
>
>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
> peace. Yes this looks like a
> smart move.
> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
> about ruby and swift)
> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
> programming!!
>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the
> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses
> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or
> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete
> lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.
> Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why
> anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive
> influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
S Krish
2016-03-05 08:34:18 UTC
Permalink
Emotional arguments do not change facts.

Contributions of 1000's from 1970's make all of programming languages what
they are. Acknowledgement of heritage period. Carry on with the great work,
which future generations will acknowledge, even more the contributions of
all around Pharo around today, I am sure.


On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 1:40 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:

> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.
>
>
> Stef
>
> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>
>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
>> this looks like a
>> smart move.
>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
>> and swift)
>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>> programming!!
>>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
> distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further,
> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be
> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
>
>
>
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-05 17:22:57 UTC
Permalink
Stef,

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.

I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?


I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.

And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.

> Stef
>
> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>> smart move.
>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>
>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>
>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>
>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>
>> Offended,
>> Eliot
>
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-03-05 18:10:59 UTC
Permalink
> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Stef,
>
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>
>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>> Seriously.
>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>> promote smalltalk.
>
> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>
>
> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>
> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.

Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.

If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).

We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.

Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:

http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo

But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.

>> Stef
>>
>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>> smart move.
>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>
>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>
>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>
>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>
>>> Offended,
>>> Eliot
Ben Coman
2016-03-05 18:57:42 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Stef,
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>
>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>> Seriously.
>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>> promote smalltalk.
>>
>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>
>>
>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>
>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>
> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>
> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>
> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>
> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>
> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>
> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.


The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
-80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".

As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
(which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
*just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
*subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
communities.)

cheers -ben


>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>> smart move.
>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>>
>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>
>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>
>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>
>>>> Offended,
>>>> Eliot
>
>
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-03-05 21:05:41 UTC
Permalink
> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>
>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Stef,
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>> Seriously.
>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>
>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>
>>>
>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>
>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>
>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>
>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>
>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>
>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>
>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>
>
> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>
> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
> communities.)
>
> cheers -ben

Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?

Come on, let's be serious.

(BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us).

What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this community as a stranger (for us), started contributing in various ways, we saw that you were serious/good and we accepted your work, letting you work on very fundamental code that had the potential to break everything. There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk, let alone the place where we forked from. It is as simple as that. That is why it is called Pharo, why we say Pharo is yours.

>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>>> smart move.
>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>>>
>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>>
>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Offended,
>>>>> Eliot
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-05 21:17:24 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stef,
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>>
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>
>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>
>>
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>>
>> cheers -ben
>
> Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?
>
> Come on, let's be serious.
>
> (BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us).

Yes you are right, sorry for the noise.
Let's move this thread outside pharo-dev.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-06 02:24:22 UTC
Permalink
Sven,

> On Mar 5, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stef,
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>>
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>
>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>
>>
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>>
>> cheers -ben
>
> Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?

That's not at all what I read Ben as suggesting. See below...

>
> Come on, let's be serious.
>
> (BTW, this thread started with a discussion about the naming of an external library, which is entirely up to the main developers driving that library, not us).
>
> What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this community as a stranger (for us), started contributing in various ways, we saw that you were serious/good and we accepted your work, letting you work on very fundamental code that had the potential to break everything. There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk, let alone the place where we forked from. It is as simple as that. That is why it is called Pharo, why we say Pharo is yours.

Look at your language (with which I am happy). "There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk...". That implies Pharo is a Smalltalk but it is its own version. That's /not/ what "Smalltalk-inspired" means at all.

When one tries to say Pharo is not a Smalltalk, then I have an issue. No one is saying that Pharo is not unique or saying anything pejorative. All we're saying is that Pharo is a Smalltalk.

>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>>>> smart move.
>>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Offended,
>>>>>> Eliot
>
>
Jimmie Houchin
2016-03-06 01:56:54 UTC
Permalink
On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Stef,
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>> Seriously.
>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>
>>>
>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>
>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>
>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>
>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>
>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>
>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>
> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>
> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
> communities.)
>
> cheers -ben

I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things.
What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument
pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the
creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name
Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators
of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage
or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take
Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a
different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the
name of Smalltalk.

Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of
Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am
happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name
of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be.

Just one opinion of someone who is both pro-Smalltalk and pro-Pharo. And
strongly understands words have meaning.

Shalom.

Jimmie
Eliot Miranda
2016-03-06 02:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Jimmie,

>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stef,
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>>
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>
>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>>
>> cheers -ben
>
> I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk.
>
> Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be.

AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80.

The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane.



> Just one opinion of someone who is both pro-Smalltalk and pro-Pharo. And strongly understands words have meaning.
>
> Shalom.
>
> Jimmie
>
>
>
Jimmie Houchin
2016-03-06 02:51:32 UTC
Permalink
On 03/05/2016 08:33 PM, Eliot Miranda wrote:
> Jimmie,
>
>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 5:56 PM, Jimmie Houchin <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 03/05/2016 12:57 PM, Ben Coman wrote:
>>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Stef,
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>>
>>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>>>
>>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>>
>>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
>>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
>>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>>
>>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
>>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
>>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
>>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>>> communities.)
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>> I have had this argument also from the pro-Smalltalk side of things. What persuaded me to be more liberal and permissive in the argument pro-Pharo is simply this. All of the Smalltalks above were done be the creators of Smalltalk. They had ownership and rights to the name Smalltalk and the directions it had the freedom to pursue. The creators of Pharo do not have such ownership to the Smalltalk history, heritage or name. Do they have the rights to say that the direction they take Pharo is the direction of Smalltalk? What if Squeak diverges in a different direction? Who is to say which is the standard bearer for the name of Smalltalk.
>>
>> Caution says no. Pharo doesn't have that right. The creators of Smalltalk did not hand off the stewardship of Smalltalk to Pharo. I am happy to be proven that Pharo has legitimate rights to carry on the name of Smalltalk in the directions it goes, regardless of what they may be.
> AFAIA no one has trademarked Smalltalk, only Smalltalk-80.
>
> The situation seems to me analogous to programming languages being likened to vehicles, the dynamic languages to flying vehicles, Smalltalk to jet plane and Pharo to an Airbus 380. There is no way anyone is going to prevent someone calling a jet plane a jet plane. No one other than Airbus can call a plant they produce an Airbus. It dies not make sense to say an Airbus 380 is not a jet plane.

I personally am okay with that understanding. As I said, I am
pro-Smalltalk. I would be thrilled with Pharo associating itself with
Smalltalk as a Smalltalk. I like Smalltalk. :) I am proud of the
Smalltalk heritage and ancestry. However, like with Smalltalk. I do not
have a say with Pharo either. :)

Shalom.

Jimmie
stepharo
2016-03-06 08:31:46 UTC
Permalink
left blank on purpose



Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
> Stef,
>
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr
> <mailto:***@free.fr>> wrote:
>
>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in
>> the same.
>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>
>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our
>> language and do node.js.
>> Seriously.
>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I
>> can tell you.
>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be
>> a good opportunity.
>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and
>> visibility of our system
>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do
>> something.
>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to
>> stay with old friends
>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an
>> asshole that does not want to
>> promote smalltalk.
>
> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk
> name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want
> to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the
> equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you
> address my points about older programming languages whose
> names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>
>
> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I
> admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing
> and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep
> quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.
> And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>
> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are
> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a
> spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing
> called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it.
> Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>
>> Stef
>>
>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr
>>> <mailto:***@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another
>>>> split?
>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
>>> peace. Yes this looks like a
>>> smart move.
>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
>>> about ruby and swift)
>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>>> programming!!
>>>
>>>
>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the
>>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses
>>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or
>>> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete
>>> lack of gratitude.
>>>
>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of
>>> low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no
>>> one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>
>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
>>> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic.
>>> Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why
>>> anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive
>>> influence is beyond me.
>>>
>>> Offended,
>>> Eliot
>>
stepharo
2016-03-06 08:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk

- First because we make it to free us from the past.

- In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the
90 do not discard Pharo because

- "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work
well in team"
- "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
- "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
- "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10
min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
- I did not get how you work in team
- "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
- "Smalltalk is monolithic"
- "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the
outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
- "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu
programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
etre si super que cela...."

I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we
can show that they are wrong.
There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
No more no less.

So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.

So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and
the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk
to exist in 2050.
The future is much more important that the history.

You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you
add to cross the street to fetch water.




> left blank on purpose
>
>
>
> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>> Stef,
>>
>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>
>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in
>>> the same.
>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>
>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving
>>> our language and do node.js.
>>> Seriously.
>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I
>>> can tell you.
>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be
>>> a good opportunity.
>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and
>>> visibility of our system
>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do
>>> something.
>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to
>>> stay with old friends
>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an
>>> asshole that does not want to
>>> promote smalltalk.
>>
>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk
>> name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I
>> want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as
>> the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why
>> don't you address my points about older programming languages whose
>> names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>
>>
>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I
>> admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing
>> and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep
>> quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.
>> And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>
>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning
>> are important, because to understand each other we should call a
>> spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this
>> thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away
>> from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another
>>>>> split?
>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
>>>> peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>> smart move.
>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
>>>> about ruby and swift)
>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of
>>>> object-oriented programming!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the
>>>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses
>>>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or
>>>> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete
>>>> lack of gratitude.
>>>>
>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of
>>>> low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no
>>>> one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>
>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate
>>>> and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not
>>>> hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive
>>>> materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible
>>>> heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>
>>>> Offended,
>>>> Eliot
>>>
>
stepharo
2016-03-06 10:04:51 UTC
Permalink
I do not know in which world you live. You are probably not exposed to
students and
to technology stack, techno center, hackaton and other place were
developers gather and hack.
You probably use Smalltalk for your hobby and this is great.
I'm selling Pharo to industry and programmers and the competition is real.

I'm sad because you did not get anything that I'm said. Sorry but I will
not continue this thread.
Now you will not force us to market Pharo the way it should.

If you are not happy, put money on the consortium and come to talk to us
but you will be disappointed
because the complete board is thinking the same.
We are marketing our future.

Now I will ask to be ban from this list such recurrent discussions. Why
because we all lose time and you make me
losing a lot of energy and frankly I would be you I would prefer that
Stephane Ducasse, the Great Energizer
is focusing on producing cool videos, new books or whatever instead of
talking about this "pharo is smalltalk" shit.

Yes you see I spent 14 hours to go to discuss with didier and we pushed
the numerical method book (that I reviewed
in the past several times), with serge we edited the new version of the
book, we patiently collected
all the libraries over the years, we are fighting with dependencies and
more.
So it gives the right to do what we want and if you are not happy, I'm
sorry about it but this is like that!

Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2016-03-06 10:10:51 UTC
Permalink
> On 06 Mar 2016, at 10:50, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org> wrote:
>
> Instead of spending a sh*tload of bytes arguing about this nonsense, let's move on to do some coding...

Sorry, but this is the only reasonable thing I can rescue from this whole thread.
The same discussion arises every year once or twice and is always same result: nothing, except people getting angry and trolling in every possible direction
 we will *never* reach an agreement here because is a subjective matter. Is that a reason to zealot about? No (and take into account I’m referring to all positions here, not just one side or another).

So I will ask *again* too calm down and let’s talk about what is really important? This thread has now 44 mails (45 with this now)
 of those, just the first mail had something to do with the original purpose.

Stay calm, stay cool
 we are all big persons with strong opinions that deserves respect. But we are here to put that positions aside and to discuss about what we can do together
 they can be great of dust, you decide.

Esteban

ps: if it helps, consider this thread as “moderated: not constructive” :)
Torsten Bergmann
2016-03-06 14:05:14 UTC
Permalink
It is understandable that over time an own identity for Pharo is helpful (especially
because of the bad Smalltalk marketing, failures of commercial vendors in the past, ...).
But also no one can not deny/hide the original roots of Pharo: the primary foundations
with pure objects all the way down and messages and concepts just plain Smalltalk.
Same for the basic class hierarchy, ...

So this discussion is useless, especially because Pharo still lacks many of the
features a portable, integratable environment should have (and that Smalltalk
failed to deliver, at least in a common way). We should not confuse wishes/dreams
with existing state of the technology and facts.

Also why discuss about this now again? Did we discuss about renaming SUnit into PUnit? No.
This just burns our cycles.

For the marketing part there is a primary question to be answered: what are the
(business) problems Pharo can solve. At least if we want Pharo to be commercially
viable and get money (not only our own) into the community.
This is the part that was answered by other languages and technologies so far and
the simple reason why they are used: even when they are ugly they solve a problem.

Nonetheless:
============
If there is a rename I would suggest to rename "SciSmalltalk" into "Polymath".    
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymath
- it can be applied to many subject areas
- would be related to Math and science
- would also have a "P" like Pharo in the name
- Da Vinci was a polymath person, as well as Imhotep :)

Bye
T.
Volkert
2016-03-06 10:29:30 UTC
Permalink
+100

On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
> Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
>
> - First because we make it to free us from the past.
>
> - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the
> 90 do not discard Pharo because
>
> - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work
> well in team"
> - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
> - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
> - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took
> 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
> - I did not get how you work in team
> - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
> - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
> - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the
> outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
> - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu
> programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
> etre si super que cela...."
>
> I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
> I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we
> can show that they are wrong.
> There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
> No more no less.
>
> So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
>
> So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future:
> and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
> There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for
> Smalltalk to exist in 2050.
> The future is much more important that the history.
>
> You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you
> add to cross the street to fetch water.
>
>
>
>
>> left blank on purpose
>>
>>
>>
>> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>> Stef,
>>>
>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>
>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in
>>>> the same.
>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>
>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving
>>>> our language and do node.js.
>>>> Seriously.
>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave.
>>>> I can tell you.
>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would
>>>> be a good opportunity.
>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and
>>>> visibility of our system
>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do
>>>> something.
>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want
>>>> to stay with old friends
>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an
>>>> asshole that does not want to
>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>
>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk
>>> name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I
>>> want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as
>>> the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why
>>> don't you address my points about older programming languages whose
>>> names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>
>>>
>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I
>>> admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing
>>> and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep
>>> quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong.
>>> And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>
>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning
>>> are important, because to understand each other we should call a
>>> spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this
>>> thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away
>>> from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet
>>>>>> another split?
>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in
>>>>> peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>>> smart move.
>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking
>>>>> about ruby and swift)
>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of
>>>>> object-oriented programming!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the
>>>>> community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses
>>>>> Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or
>>>>> massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a
>>>>> complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of
>>>>> low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no
>>>>> one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>>
>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate
>>>>> and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not
>>>>> hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive
>>>>> materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible
>>>>> heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Offended,
>>>>> Eliot
>>>>
>>
>
Dimitris Chloupis
2016-03-06 12:00:48 UTC
Permalink
Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in
Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by
this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a
modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no
mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week
before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website
whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ?

Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk
is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with
Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like
going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this
is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the
box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority.

I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very
uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at
some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont
happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and
its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the
language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third
party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most
likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo
because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of
time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or
realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is
a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern
technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core.

And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving.

I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language,
manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries
(MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems
(see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers),
vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK
etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly
than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ?

I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the
end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I
know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to
begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others:




*Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern
implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and
pays credit to it. *
Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo
then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo.

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <***@komponentenwerkstatt.de>
wrote:

> +100
>
>
> On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
>
> Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
>
> - First because we make it to free us from the past.
>
> - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90
> do not discard Pharo because
>
> - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well
> in team"
> - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
> - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
> - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10
> min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
> - I did not get how you work in team
> - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
> - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
> - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside
> world" a guy organising OOPSLA
> - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes
> en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
> etre si super que cela...."
>
> I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
> I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can
> show that they are wrong.
> There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
> No more no less.
>
> So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
>
> So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and
> the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
> There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk
> to exist in 2050.
> The future is much more important that the history.
>
> You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add
> to cross the street to fetch water.
>
>
>
>
> left blank on purpose
>
>
>
> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
> Stef,
>
> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the
> same.
> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>
> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our
> language and do node.js.
> Seriously.
> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can
> tell you.
> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a
> good opportunity.
> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility
> of our system
> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
> Afterall I may be wrong.
> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay
> with old friends
> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole
> that does not want to
> promote smalltalk.
>
>
> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk
> name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to
> refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating
> it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my
> points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not
> perceived negatively?
>
>
> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire
> and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and
> supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about
> something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is
> to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>
> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are
> important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade,
> and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk,
> and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by
> Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>
> Stef
>
> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>
>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
>> this looks like a
>> smart move.
>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
>> and swift)
>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>> programming!!
>>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
> distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further,
> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be
> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nicolai Hess
2016-03-06 13:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Thank you Stéphane Ducasse,
thank you Eliot Miranda,
and all other people of this community.

I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user /
supporter)
for <enter your favourite name for this great exceptional computing
environment>
and it is a pleasure for me to work with you.

(this is all I have to say to this topic)

Thanks ! And go one :-)

nicolai
stepharo
2016-03-06 15:03:34 UTC
Permalink
Le 6/3/16 14:53, Nicolai Hess a écrit :
>
>
> Thank you Stéphane Ducasse,
> thank you Eliot Miranda,
> and all other people of this community.
>
> I appreciate what all you are doing (as a teacher / developer / user /
> supporter)
> for <enter your favourite name for this great exceptional computing
> environment>
> and it is a pleasure for me to work with you.

Me too :)

> (this is all I have to say to this topic)
>
> Thanks ! And go one :-)
>
> nicolai
Yuriy Tymchuk
2016-03-06 13:56:21 UTC
Permalink
You know people, you should get a life.

The call was to Pharoers to improve Numerical Methods in Pharo. I understand that someone is pissed that Pharo is evolving, but I don’t understand why you keep replying to them.

Uko

> On 06 Mar 2016, at 14:31, Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org> wrote:
>
>
> From: Benoit St-Jean via Pharo-dev <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:31:24 GMT+1
> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Cc: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>
> Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>, Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
>
>
>
> From: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
> Date: 6 March 2016 at 14:30:03 GMT+1
> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Reply-To: Benoit St-Jean <***@yahoo.com>
>
>
> Amen!
>
> My lastname is St-Jean, like it or not I'm closer to Ducasse than Hollansworth!
>
> I discovered Smalltalk with ObjectWorks on AIX : I'm closer to Pharo than Python, C, C++, C#, Ruby, Snobol, Dart, Go or any other language... Like it or not, I'm closer to Smalltalk than Java, COBOL or any other retarded programming language...
>
> I've been working as a consultant in Smalltalk since the 90s. I don't care : VW, VAST, VSE as long as it's Smalltalk! I'm closer to Pharo than I am to anything else (except Modula-2).
>
> This stupid war is sooooooo stupid!
>
> If you know what the DNU acronym means, you're a Smalltalker. Period.
>
> Pharo can go its own way (whether I like it nor not), but it's still Smalltalk!
>
> These guys (the Pharoers, and Stéphane Ducasse) have made *tremendous* steps forward. Like "how come nobody ever did that for Smalltalk except James Robertson" ?
>
> I like Pharo. I fell in love with VW 2.5.
>
> Vous êtes si belles, vous toutes!
>
> I love Smalltalk!
>
>
>
> -----------------
> Benoît St-Jean
> Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
> Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
> Pinterest: benoitstjean
> IRC: lamneth
> Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
> "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein)
>
>
> From: Dimitris Chloupis <***@gmail.com>
> To: Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>
> Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2016 7:00 AM
> Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> Sorry guys but I dont think this is non sense because you may be coding in Pharo and Smalltalk for a long time, but as a beginner I was confused by this, and to this day I am still confused why Pharo is not calling itself a modern implementation of Smalltalk. Even in Pharo by Example there was no mention at all the Pharo is a Squeak fork, nothing, now there is (few week before) , guess who added it. No mention about Squeak in our website whatsoever. Why ? Do we just fork and forget about them ?
>
> Also this whole guilt about the so called "failure" or "death" of smalltalk is hilarious. Smalltalk was never popular and we certainly wont be with Pharo, because in the end its very unfamiliar and most coders dont like going outside their comfort zone. Personally I am fine with that but this is why I use Pharo to get outside my comfort zone and think outside the box, but I dont kid myself, I belong to a tiny minority.
>
> I am sorry if you feel that we derail the thread, but some of us feel very uncomfortable by some people trying to mislead newcomers that Pharo will at some point brake away from Smalltalk heritage when we all know that wont happen for the following reasons 1) Smalltalk is an awesome language and its failure to become popular has nothing to do with the IDE and the language and more to do with lack of libraries, documentation and third party tool support plus of course the all important familiarity b) Most likely a ton of Squeak and older Smalltalk code will remain in Pharo because none sane enough would removed code that has stood the test of time, is well designed and works c) Even if you have a tiny sense or realism you will realize that the reason why people use Pharo is because is a modern implementation of smalltalk, trying to connect with modern technologies but at same time remaining a smalltalk in the core.
>
> And finally lets take into account that all languages are evolving.
>
> I was coding C++ till 1996 and was very frustrated with the language, manual memory management, inflexible type system, horrible GUI libraries (MFC). Now I learn C++ 11 which means an almost fully dynamic type systems (see auto , templates etc) , automatic memory management (smart pointers), vast array of greatly design GUI and graphics libraries (QT, Unreal, GTK etc). In 20 years C++ has become night and day, sure still much more ugly than Pharo but far, far better . Did we stop calling it C++ ?
>
> I totally agree, that this discussion arises few time per year and in the end we dont agree. But I dont post here to make you change your mind, I know people rarely do that, I post here because I want to make crystal to begineers viewing this mailing that for me and many others:
>
> Pharo IS Smalltalk, Pharo IS a Squeak fork, Pharo is a modern implementation that tries to push forward but respects its heritage and pays credit to it.
>
>
> Saying that if this numpy variant library intends to target only Pharo then it makes more sense to call it SciPharo.
>
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 12:30 PM Volkert <***@komponentenwerkstatt.de <mailto:***@komponentenwerkstatt.de>> wrote:
> +100
>
>
> On 06.03.2016 09:48, stepharo wrote:
>> Why Pharo is not smalltalk and will not be Smalltalk
>>
>> - First because we make it to free us from the past.
>>
>> - In the future we want that people that learned smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because
>>
>> - "what killed smalltalk was that we could not work well in team"
>> - "smalltalk oh it does not scale"
>> - "I cannot edit my code with emacs"
>> - "oh back in 1993 I got lecture and the system took 10 min to boot on our sparc (I got this story yesterday)"
>> - I did not get how you work in team
>> - "with Smalltalk you cannot save your code in svn"
>> - "Smalltalk is monolithic"
>> - "you are in a cage you cannot interact with the outside world" a guy organising OOPSLA
>> - "Smalltalk what a dated name! bavardage: tu programmes en bavardage, donc les resultats ne doivent pas
>> etre si super que cela...."
>>
>> I do not care that these statements are right or wrong.
>> I do not care that people are ignorant. And yes with some education we can show that they are wrong.
>> There are in the mind of people that got in touch with Smalltalk.
>> No more no less.
>>
>> So may be Smalltalkers should read book about marketing in general.
>>
>> So you are stuck in your history and I'm dreaming about the future: and the future is Pharo not Smalltalk. Face it.
>> There will be no renewal of Smalltalk. Pharo is the chance for Smalltalk to exist in 2050.
>> The future is much more important that the history.
>>
>> You do not make people dreaming telling them that back in the 1940 you add to cross the street to fetch water.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> left blank on purpose
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 5/3/16 18:22, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>> Stef,
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo < <mailto:***@free.fr>***@free.fr <mailto:***@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo < <mailto:***@free.fr>***@free.fr <mailto:***@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>>>> smart move.
>>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Offended,
>>>>>> Eliot
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
S Krish
2016-03-05 08:25:08 UTC
Permalink
+1

On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
>>
>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>
>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes
>> this looks like a
>> smart move.
>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby
>> and swift)
>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented
>> programming!!
>>
>
> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community.
> I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to
> distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the
> inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>
> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level
> imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to
> rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>
> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and
> identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further,
> Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be
> ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>
> Offended,
> Eliot
>
Esteban Lorenzano
2016-03-05 10:37:30 UTC
Permalink
frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense.

first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier… what is the problem?
second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo.

So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important?

cheers,
Esteban


> On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
>
>
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-03-05 11:05:56 UTC
Permalink
> On 05 Mar 2016, at 11:37, Esteban Lorenzano <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> frankly all this zealot mails do not have any sense.
>
> first, SciSmalltalk is a project made fundamentally by Serge, and is Serge who has pointed he wants a change of name for something sexier… what is the problem?
> second, by discussing a nonsense (because is subjective and everybody has a different opinion) you are highjacking the real purpose of this mail: a call to the community to improve the numerical methods support in Pharo.
>
> So, please, can we stay cool and go back to discuss what is really important?

+100

> cheers,
> Esteban
>
>
>> On 02 Mar 2016, at 14:33, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with Serge Stinckwich.
>> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big thanks*** Didier.
>>
>> We would like to do several things:
>>
>> - Work on "Hows to"
>> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the math is too large :)
>> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
>> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>>
>> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>> This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
>> objects available in SciPharo.
>> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can plug other distribution for having
>> controlled random number.
>>
>> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>> So tell us :)
>>
>> Hernan ??
>> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
>> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
>> Philippe: times series
>> Serge R frames?
>> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>>
>> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September with a recording session.
>> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>>
>> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a better cover and title :)
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-02 18:55:42 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:17 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with
> Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
> thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the
> math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)

Yes this is important to have more exemples, because they are a lot of

> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>
> This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition
> by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.

:-)

> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we
> can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.

Ok, did you commit the code ?

> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
> September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a
> better cover and title :)

Thank you Stef for pushing !
Can we move this discussion of the SciSmalltalk mailing-list ?
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Alexandre Bergel
2016-03-02 22:39:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi !

> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)

This is an excellent initiative!
I personally need the following:
- Shapiro-Wilk test to check for data normality
- Kruskal-Wallis to analyze differences in median values between samples
- Bonferroni-Dunn to support multiple comparison and controlling the group error rate
- Mann-Whitney U test is a nonparametric statistical test that operates over two samples of the same size.

Cheers,
Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-03 07:31:35 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:39 PM, Alexandre Bergel
<***@me.com> wrote:
> Hi !
>
>> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>> So tell us :)
>
> This is an excellent initiative!
> I personally need the following:
> - Shapiro-Wilk test to check for data normality
> - Kruskal-Wallis to analyze differences in median values between samples
> - Bonferroni-Dunn to support multiple comparison and controlling the group error rate
> - Mann-Whitney U test is a nonparametric statistical test that operates over two samples of the same size.

Great list ! At the moment, there is only Kolmogorov-Smirnov test implemented.
Can you create issues in the SciSmalltalk issue tracker in order to
keep track of your needs ?
The issue tracker is here:
https://github.com/SergeStinckwich/SciSmalltalk/issues

You can also join the SciSmalltalk mailing-list:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scismalltalk
Thank you Alex.
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Alexandre Bergel
2016-03-04 11:42:05 UTC
Permalink
> Great list ! At the moment, there is only Kolmogorov-Smirnov test implemented.

I am not sure when this tests has to be applied.

> Can you create issues in the SciSmalltalk issue tracker in order to
> keep track of your needs ?
> The issue tracker is here:
> https://github.com/SergeStinckwich/SciSmalltalk/issues

Done!

> You can also join the SciSmalltalk mailing-list:
> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/scismalltalk

Done!

Alexandre

--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
Hernán Morales Durand
2016-03-03 05:25:03 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stef,

For bioinformatics research it would be **really** nice to have:

- Tree creation algorithms: UPGMA, WPGMA.
- MCMC methods: Metropolis-adjusted Langevin algorithm (MALA and SMMALA),
Metropolis-coupled MCMC (MC3) would enable Bayesian inferences and to work
with evolution of genes. I cannot tell how important is to have such
algorithms implemented in Smalltalk.
- Mahalanobis distance for analyzing bacterial plasmids.
- Random Forest is used a lot for gene expression, protein-protein
interaction predictions, genome-wide association studies, etc . For the
argument "let's use FFI for it" please remember many of these methods are
extended, like enriched random forest, for research with specialized data.

There are implementations of naive Bayes classifier in NaturalSmalltalk
(which could be adapted to SciPharo)
http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/NaturalSmalltalk

As a side note I found an interesting history report of SciPy.
From the slide 9 onwards:

http://sssslide.com/www.slideshare.net/shoheihido/sci-pyhistory

Presentation shows SciPy history (credited contributors with pictures, very
nice!).
As you can se they even have a Foundation NumFOCUS for raising money.

Hernán

2016-03-02 10:17 GMT-03:00 stepharo <***@free.fr>:

> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions
> with Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
> thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and
> the math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a ComponentPrincipalDecomposition
> by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we
> can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail
> :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
> September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a
> better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
>
>
>
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-03 07:39:19 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 6:25 AM, Hernán Morales Durand
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Stef,
>
> For bioinformatics research it would be **really** nice to have:
>
> - Tree creation algorithms: UPGMA, WPGMA.
> - MCMC methods: Metropolis-adjusted Langevin algorithm (MALA and SMMALA),
> Metropolis-coupled MCMC (MC3) would enable Bayesian inferences and to work
> with evolution of genes. I cannot tell how important is to have such
> algorithms implemented in Smalltalk.
> - Mahalanobis distance for analyzing bacterial plasmids.
> - Random Forest is used a lot for gene expression, protein-protein
> interaction predictions, genome-wide association studies, etc . For the
> argument "let's use FFI for it" please remember many of these methods are
> extended, like enriched random forest, for research with specialized data.

Can you add enhancement issues in the SciSmalltalk issue tracker :
https://github.com/SergeStinckwich/SciSmalltalk/issues
in order to keep them in mind ?

We are trying to create a pure Smalltalk library, so we try to avoid
FFI as much as possible :-)

> There are implementations of naive Bayes classifier in NaturalSmalltalk
> (which could be adapted to SciPharo)
> http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~hernan/NaturalSmalltalk

Great, if we can move them to SciSmalltalk.

> As a side note I found an interesting history report of SciPy.
> From the slide 9 onwards:
>
> http://sssslide.com/www.slideshare.net/shoheihido/sci-pyhistory
>
> Presentation shows SciPy history (credited contributors with pictures, very
> nice!).
> As you can se they even have a Foundation NumFOCUS for raising money.

For sure, money always help ;-)
The only problem at the moment is that the Pharo community is much
smaller at the moment than the Python one.

Thank you for your help.
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Blondeau Vincent
2016-03-03 09:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

That's a very good idea.
For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is directly in the image.

For my part, it should be nice to have:
- Principal Component Analysis
- Time series
- Correlation with several variables (Correlation matrix) + significance tests (pearson, spearman...)
- Standard statistical tests: normality, variance, mean, distribution
- And the more important is to have nice tools to visualize the data (Box plot, histogram, scatterplots, PCA ones) with a simple API for standard things but that we can customize. The best is that we are able to draw regression lines on them. But I think that is more a Roassal part.

Thanks for the initiative,

Cheers,
Vincent

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de
> stepharo
> Envoyé : mercredi 2 mars 2016 14:17
> À : Pharo Development List; Any question about pharo is welcome; Didier
> Besset; Souissi Sami
> Objet : [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with
> Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
> thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the
> math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a
> ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can
> plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September
> with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a
> better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
>


!!!*************************************************************************************
"Ce message et les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et réservés à l'usage exclusif de ses destinataires. Il peut également être protégé par le secret professionnel. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, merci d'en avertir immédiatement l'expéditeur et de le détruire. L'intégrité du message ne pouvant être assurée sur Internet, la responsabilité de Worldline ne pourra être recherchée quant au contenu de ce message. Bien que les meilleurs efforts soient faits pour maintenir cette transmission exempte de tout virus, l'expéditeur ne donne aucune garantie à cet égard et sa responsabilité ne saurait être recherchée pour tout dommage résultant d'un virus transmis.

This e-mail and the documents attached are confidential and intended solely for the addressee; it may also be privileged. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy it. As its integrity cannot be secured on the Internet, the Worldline liability cannot be triggered for the message content. Although the sender endeavours to maintain a computer virus-free network, the sender does not warrant that this transmission is virus-free and will not be liable for any damages resulting f
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-03 10:03:51 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Blondeau Vincent
<***@worldline.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> That's a very good idea.
> For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is directly in the image.
>
> For my part, it should be nice to have:
> - Principal Component Analysis
> - Time series

I already a very simple time series class. What kind of operations you
want to do on time series ?

> - Correlation with several variables (Correlation matrix) + significance tests (pearson, spearman...)
> - Standard statistical tests: normality, variance, mean, distribution
> - And the more important is to have nice tools to visualize the data (Box plot, histogram, scatterplots, PCA ones) with a simple API for standard things but that we can customize. The best is that we are able to draw regression lines on them. But I think that is more a Roassal part.

You have to ask Alex to the viz :-)

Please join the SciSmalltalk ml in order to express your needs ;-)
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Blondeau Vincent
2016-03-09 18:33:43 UTC
Permalink
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de
> Serge Stinckwich
> Envoyé : jeudi 3 mars 2016 11:04
> À : Any question about pharo is welcome
> Cc : Didier Besset; Souissi Sami; Pharo Development List
> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo
> :)
>
> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Blondeau Vincent
> <***@worldline.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > That's a very good idea.
> > For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is
> directly in the image.
> >
> > For my part, it should be nice to have:
> > - Principal Component Analysis
> > - Time series
>
> I already a very simple time series class. What kind of operations you want to
> do on time series ?

For now, I am not using time series.
But one year ago, I was using Holt Winters and Seasonal Decomposition (HoltWinters and stl functions under R).
And it is possible that I reuse them in a close future.

>
> > - Correlation with several variables (Correlation matrix) +
> > significance tests (pearson, spearman...)
> > - Standard statistical tests: normality, variance, mean, distribution
> > - And the more important is to have nice tools to visualize the data (Box
> plot, histogram, scatterplots, PCA ones) with a simple API for standard things
> but that we can customize. The best is that we are able to draw regression
> lines on them. But I think that is more a Roassal part.
>
> You have to ask Alex to the viz :-)

;)
>
> Please join the SciSmalltalk ml in order to express your needs ;-)
> --
> Serge Stinckwich
> UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
> Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
> http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/


!!!*************************************************************************************
"Ce message et les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et réservés à l'usage exclusif de ses destinataires. Il peut également être protégé par le secret professionnel. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, merci d'en avertir immédiatement l'expéditeur et de le détruire. L'intégrité du message ne pouvant être assurée sur Internet, la responsabilité de Worldline ne pourra être recherchée quant au contenu de ce message. Bien que les meilleurs efforts soient faits pour maintenir cette transmission exempte de tout virus, l'expéditeur ne donne aucune garantie à cet égard et sa responsabilité ne saurait être recherchée pour tout dommage résultant d'un virus transmis.

This e-mail and the documents attached are confidential and intended solely for the addressee; it may also be privileged. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy it. As its integrity cannot be secured on the Internet, the Worldline liability cannot be triggered for the message content. Although the sender endeavours to maintain a computer virus-free network, the sender does not warrant that this transmission is virus-free and will not be liable for any da
Serge Stinckwich
2016-03-09 19:22:25 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Blondeau Vincent
<***@worldline.com> wrote:
>
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de
>> Serge Stinckwich
>> Envoyé : jeudi 3 mars 2016 11:04
>> À : Any question about pharo is welcome
>> Cc : Didier Besset; Souissi Sami; Pharo Development List
>> Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo
>> :)
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Blondeau Vincent
>> <***@worldline.com> wrote:
>> > Hi,
>> >
>> > That's a very good idea.
>> > For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is
>> directly in the image.
>> >
>> > For my part, it should be nice to have:
>> > - Principal Component Analysis
>> > - Time series
>>
>> I already a very simple time series class. What kind of operations you want to
>> do on time series ?
>
> For now, I am not using time series.
> But one year ago, I was using Holt Winters and Seasonal Decomposition (HoltWinters and stl functions under R).
> And it is possible that I reuse them in a close future.

I have no idea what is it :-) Can you add some issues regarding your
needs in the SciSmalltalk issue tracker here:
https://github.com/SergeStinckwich/SciSmalltalk/issues

Alex already add some issues as enhancement.

--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
Alexandre Bergel
2016-03-08 19:23:15 UTC
Permalink
Vincent, can you tell a bit more what this binding is about?
how can I try?

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.



> On Mar 3, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Blondeau Vincent <***@worldline.com> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> That's a very good idea.
> For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is directly in the image.
>
> For my part, it should be nice to have:
> - Principal Component Analysis
> - Time series
> - Correlation with several variables (Correlation matrix) + significance tests (pearson, spearman...)
> - Standard statistical tests: normality, variance, mean, distribution
> - And the more important is to have nice tools to visualize the data (Box plot, histogram, scatterplots, PCA ones) with a simple API for standard things but that we can customize. The best is that we are able to draw regression lines on them. But I think that is more a Roassal part.
>
> Thanks for the initiative,
>
> Cheers,
> Vincent
>
>> -----Message d'origine-----
>> De : Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de
>> stepharo
>> Envoyé : mercredi 2 mars 2016 14:17
>> À : Pharo Development List; Any question about pharo is welcome; Didier
>> Besset; Souissi Sami
>> Objet : [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
>>
>> Hi guys
>>
>> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with
>> Serge Stinckwich.
>> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
>> thanks*** Didier.
>>
>> We would like to do several things:
>>
>> - Work on "Hows to"
>> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the
>> math is too large :)
>> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
>> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>>
>> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
>> This morning we started to implement a
>> ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
>> objects available in SciPharo.
>> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can
>> plug other distribution for having
>> controlled random number.
>>
>> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
>> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
>> So tell us :)
>>
>> Hernan ??
>> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
>> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
>> Philippe: times series
>> Serge R frames?
>> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>>
>> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September
>> with a recording session.
>> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>>
>> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a
>> better cover and title :)
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>
>
> !!!*************************************************************************************
> "Ce message et les piÚces jointes sont confidentiels et réservés à l'usage exclusif de ses destinataires. Il peut également être protégé par le secret professionnel. Si vous recevez ce message par erreur, merci d'en avertir immédiatement l'expéditeur et de le détruire. L'intégrité du message ne pouvant être assurée sur Internet, la responsabilité de Worldline ne pourra être recherchée quant au contenu de ce message. Bien que les meilleurs efforts soient faits pour maintenir cette transmission exempte de tout virus, l'expéditeur ne donne aucune garantie à cet égard et sa responsabilité ne saurait être recherchée pour tout dommage résultant d'un virus transmis.
>
> This e-mail and the documents attached are confidential and intended solely for the addressee; it may also be privileged. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy it. As its integrity cannot be secured on the Internet, the Worldline liability cannot be triggered for the message content. Although the sender endeavours to maintain a computer virus-free network, the sender does not warrant that this transmission is virus-free and will not be liable for any damages resulting from any virus transmitted.!!!"
Blondeau Vincent
2016-03-09 18:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Hi Alex,

This binding allows to execute (almost) any function provided by R via Native Calls.

You can find some documentation here: http://smalltalkhub.com/#!/~VincentBlondeau/RProjectConnector
I just released a new stable version, you should be able to load it from the catalog (Pharo40 only).
However, you must install R and copy the libraries in the VM folder (see doc).
And it is working only with pre-spur images (the migration to FFI has to be done).

Try to run the tests (in RConnector package). Iff they are green, you succeeded to configure the binding.

And you can plot the famous Iris Data:
iris := 'eval' asREval: { RObject findVar: 'iris' }.
'plot'
asREval:
{(iris at: 'Petal.Length').
(iris at: 'Petal.Width').
(#pch -> 21).
(#xlab -> 'length').
(#ylab -> 'Width').
(#bg ->((iris at: 'Species') collect: [ :value | {'red'. 'green3'. 'blue'} at: value ])).
(#main -> 'Edgar Anderson''s Iris Data')}.


plot(iris$Petal.Length, iris$Petal.Width, pch=21, bg=c("red","green3","blue")[unclass(iris$Species)], main="Edgar Anderson's Iris Data")

is the genuine R function.

And inspect them:
iris inspect

You can use any collection of pharo and put it as argument, it should do the boxing automatically.

Warning: while testing new functions, don’t forget to save because evaluation of a non-existing R function throws a error that is not caught and makes Pharo crashing.

Cheers,
Vincent


De : Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de Alexandre Bergel
Envoyé : mardi 8 mars 2016 20:23
À : Any question about pharo is welcome
Cc : Didier Besset; Souissi Sami; Pharo Development List
Objet : Re: [Pharo-dev] [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

Vincent, can you tell a bit more what this binding is about?
how can I try?

Alexandre
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.




On Mar 3, 2016, at 6:43 AM, Blondeau Vincent <***@worldline.com<mailto:***@worldline.com>> wrote:

Hi,

That's a very good idea.
For now, I use a Pharo-R binding to make the statistics, but it is better if it is directly in the image.

For my part, it should be nice to have:
- Principal Component Analysis
- Time series
- Correlation with several variables (Correlation matrix) + significance tests (pearson, spearman...)
- Standard statistical tests: normality, variance, mean, distribution
- And the more important is to have nice tools to visualize the data (Box plot, histogram, scatterplots, PCA ones) with a simple API for standard things but that we can customize. The best is that we are able to draw regression lines on them. But I think that is more a Roassal part.

Thanks for the initiative,

Cheers,
Vincent


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Pharo-users [mailto:pharo-users-***@lists.pharo.org] De la part de
stepharo
Envoyé : mercredi 2 mars 2016 14:17
À : Pharo Development List; Any question about pharo is welcome; Didier
Besset; Souissi Sami
Objet : [Pharo-users] Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)

Hi guys

I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions with
Serge Stinckwich.
Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
thanks*** Didier.

We would like to do several things:

- Work on "Hows to"
The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and the
math is too large :)
so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
- histomgram (simple, based on distribution)

- Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
This morning we started to implement a
ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
objects available in SciPharo.
Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that we can
plug other distribution for having
controlled random number.

- Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this mail :)
Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
So tell us :)

Hernan ??
Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
Vincent: covariance? CPA?
Philippe: times series
Serge R frames?
Sami: Better random number and various distributions?

- Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in September
with a recording session.
Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.

- Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with a
better cover and title :)


Stef


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This e-mail and the documents attached are confidential and intended solely for the addressee; it may also be privileged. If you receive this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately and destroy it. As its integrity cannot be secured on the Internet, the Worldline liability cannot be triggered for the message content. Although the sender endeavours to maintain a computer virus-free network, the sender does not warrant that this transmission is virus-free and will not be liable for any damages resulting from any virus transmitted.!!!"
stepharo
2016-03-05 09:43:23 UTC
Permalink
-------- Message transféré --------
Sujet : Re: Call about Numerical Methods in Pharo :)
Date : Wed, 02 Mar 2016 22:58:37 +0100
De : Souissi Sami <***@univ-lille1.fr>
Pour : stepharo <***@free.fr>
Copie à : Pharo Development List <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>, Any
question about pharo is welcome <pharo-***@lists.pharo.org>, Didier
Besset <***@ieee.org>



Dear Stéphane, dear all
Many thanks Stéphane for this excellent initiative,
Although I am a 'new' memer in pharo 'world' but I will be interested to
see how can we enrich numerically the tool and hope that we can be able
to have more generators for probability distributions (random numbers,
Gamma, Log-Normal, etc) as well as some algorithms used to generale
different random walks that can be used in several agent-based models
(fractal; multifractal, Lévy etc)
I have also good experience with time-series analysis and other
approaches (Bayesian),
Happy to see that Serge started such development,
Looking to have more interactions on these numerical issues and looking
to meet you in the near future
Best wishes
Sami

Sami Souissi,
Professor
Université Lille Sciences & Technologies
UMR CNR


Le Mercredi 2 Mars 2016 14:33 CET, stepharo <***@free.fr> a écrit:
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions
> with Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
> thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us and
> the math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a
> ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that
> we can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this
> mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
> September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :) with
> a better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
stepharo
2016-03-06 08:51:04 UTC
Permalink
People having problems to be solved using numqi ou abacus
can you register to the mailing list and that we can continue working there?
And collecting your needs?

Stef

Le 2/3/16 14:17, stepharo a écrit :
> Hi guys
>
> I met Didier Besset and we had a great hacking session and discussions
> with Serge Stinckwich.
> Didier would like to help Pharo and the numerical part of it. ***Big
> thanks*** Didier.
>
> We would like to do several things:
>
> - Work on "Hows to"
> The numerical methods in Pharo is good but the gap between us
> and the math is too large :)
> so the idea is to have a series of "how to ..."
> - histomgram (simple, based on distribution)
>
> - Improve the SciPharo/NumPha (previously SciSmalltalk) library
> This morning we started to implement a
> ComponentPrincipalDecomposition by combining two of the
> objects available in SciPharo.
> Then we started to enhance the distributions to make sure that
> we can plug other distribution for having
> controlled random number.
>
> - Do a public call to know what is missing for you: this is this
> mail :)
> Didier would like to work on concrete cases. I love that attitude
> So tell us :)
>
> Hernan ??
> Alex: ?? pvalue? better distribution?
> Vincent: covariance? CPA?
> Philippe: times series
> Serge R frames?
> Sami: Better random number and various distributions?
>
> - Organise a two day lectures with practices on concrete case in
> September with a recording session.
> Either at IRD Bondy or Lille.
>
> - Make sure that the Numerical Method book will get on lulu :)
> with a better cover and title :)
>
>
> Stef
>
Ben Coman
2016-03-06 15:44:34 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 19:57, Ben Coman <***@openinworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:10 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 05 Mar 2016, at 18:22, Eliot Miranda <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Stef,
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 5, 2016, at 12:10 AM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> You probably leave in a protected environment but I do not live in the same.
>>>>> Did you check numPy recently or R? momemtum?
>>>>> Do you think that people do not know how to count?
>>>>> In 1980 my students were not even born, so how can it be better than
>>>>> python, java, c#, lua, ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you think that it makes me happy to see my old friends leaving our language and do node.js.
>>>>> Seriously.
>>>>> Why do you blame me? Frankly tell to leave Pharo and I will leave. I can tell you.
>>>>> I think that I need a break in my life in this moment so it would be a good opportunity.
>>>>> Because if each time I do something to improve the wealth and visibility of our system
>>>>> I get such kind of feedback then may be this is the time to do something.
>>>>> Afterall I may be wrong.
>>>>> Seriously if you think that I'm not doing a good job and you want to stay with old friends
>>>>> just let me know. but if I stay then do not tell me that I'm an asshole that does not want to
>>>>> promote smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> I do not blame you. I am offended by Pharo disavowing the Smalltalk name. I am offended when people state Pharo is not Smalltalk. I want to refute false assumptions about the name Smalltalk, such as the equating it with cobol. Instead of taking it personally why don't you address my points about older programming languages whose names (AFAICT) are not perceived negatively?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I support this community and am excited to participate in it. I admire and respect your efforts, Stéphane, in developing, organizing and supporting this community. But that does not mean I will keep quiet about something I profoundly disagree with and think is wrong. And that thing is to deny Pharo is Smalltalk.
>>>>
>>>> And I do this not because I am a zealot, but because words meaning are important, because to understand each other we should call a spade a spade, and because I am grateful for and delighted by this thing called Smalltalk, and I will not support taking credit away from it. Ruby is inspired by Smalltalk. Pharo is the real thing.
>>>
>>> Pharo was started because a certain situation existed in the Squeak community that blocked progress for a group of people that had another vision. Pharo was started and exists to fulfil that grand vision, a vision that is clearly rooted in Smalltalk history, but goes beyond that.
>>>
>>> If you want to focus on words, your sentence 'Pharo is Smalltalk' is not so innocent or politically free, as you know very well, even if it looks like factually correct (it is BTW).
>>>
>>> We say it differently because of what I just wrote, because we want to be free of backwards compatibility (if necessary), because we want to have a larger future than maintaining something old (even though we absolutely respect and acknowledge it). Yes, it is a bit of a play of words, but not without reason.
>>>
>>> Here is one writeup that tries to describe the same idea:
>>>
>>> http://www.tudorgirba.com/blog/pharo-is-pharo
>>>
>>> But the best documents are the Pharo vision documents.
>>
>>
>> The counter argument is that there was Smalltalk-71, -72, -76, -78,
>> -80. Some of these were distinctly different from the last. So
>> Smalltalk was an *evolving* system. Why can't it be so again!? and
>> be Smalltalk-Renew, Smalltalk-Next, Smalltalk-Evolved, Smalltalk-16,
>> Smalltalk-P16 or Smalltalk-P5 "Pharo 5".
>>
>> As long as the emphasis is on Pharo being an *evolution* of Smalltalk
>> (which is not in doubt), I think we cover all bases - stimulating the
>> interest of newcomers and/or detractors of old, as well as Smalltalk
>> stalwarts without being constrained by the past. As much as we might
>> want to promote Pharo being separate from Smalltalk (which I believe
>> was a reasonable strategy to establish identity at the time of the
>> fork from Squeak), Smalltalk is always going to be there for anyone
>> who scratches beneath the surface and they end up thinking "Oh its
>> *just* Smalltalk" anyway. So this remains the "elephant in the room",
>> *subtly* undermining of our marketing. Its the sort of weakness that
>> can be better to hit head on as "Smalltalk-Evolved" (since "Evolved"
>> is a term with positive connotations in the gaming / sci-fi
>> communities.)
>>
>> cheers -ben
>
> Really, Ben, are you suggesting we stop calling it Pharo ?
> Come on, let's be serious.

Thats not a serious question. Pharo could only be called Pharo.

Now just to be clear, I sit in the middle on this. I never
experienced the constraint felt before the fork from Squeak, and on
the flip side I have no big history with Smalltalk. To me, Pharo is
just Pharo and there is nothing to stop us developing the system how
we like. However I see the attempt to distance Pharo from past
problems by branding with a fresh coat of paint false economy. People
*will* scratch beneath the surface and the only way to address their
perceived problems with Smalltalk is to address them - one by one.

The essence of dispute is:

on the one hand...
A1. Future development without outside constraint
A2. Avoid the perception of being an antiquated system

and on the other hand...
B1. Stronger recognition of our Smalltalk lineage

I just don't see these as incompatible. B1 might be addressed in a
small way by a simple changing in language from "inspired by" to
"derived from". I think its a premature optimisation to be concerned
that this might impinge on A1. The Pharo "way" is well established.
For A2, I read Stef's reply "we want that people that learned
smalltalk in the 90 do not discard Pharo because..." and understand my
view of this is limited from my corner of the world. But I contend
that while you may get these people in through the door, when they
look around their next thought is "Hey, this *is* Smalltalk" and all
their old prejudices reassert and they walk away without a further
thought. I just feel its better overall for us to be upfront and say
"Historically Smalltalk didn't do XX very well, and here is how we've
fixed it!" That way, their old prejudice is actually what hooks them
to come have a look.

To use a strange analogy, its like those superstars who screw up
really badly, then

>
> What makes Pharo different is this: you (and so many others) came to this community as a stranger (for us), started contributing in various ways, we saw that you were serious/good and we accepted your work, letting you work on very fundamental code that had the potential to break everything. There is simply no way that you could have done or be allowed to do that in any other Smalltalk, let alone the place where we forked from. It is as simple as that. That is why it is called Pharo, why we say Pharo is yours.

I'm glad to have had the opportunity to contribute. I'm very glad
that Pharo is all that it is, but this openness is more about Pharo's
vision and mission and less about its roots. But you should know, I
came to Pharo because I was looking for Smalltalk (from the whisper of
a taste 15 years ago.) If it wasn't for that, (to my detriment) I
might never have arrived. Perhaps this colours my perspective.

cheers -ben

>
>>>>> Stef
>>>>>
>>>>> Le 5/3/16 02:18, Eliot Miranda a écrit :
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Mar 4, 2016 at 12:08 PM, stepharo <***@free.fr> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> SciPharo? Not so great news from my POV.
>>>>>>> What is so much pharo specific in this library?
>>>>>>> Is Smalltalk scientific community large enough for yet another split?
>>>>>> Split of what? Let us be tagged with a name of 1980 and die in peace. Yes this looks like a
>>>>>> smart move.
>>>>>> There are just Python and R and Javascript around (not talking about ruby and swift)
>>>>>> so this is a great move. We are not the cobol of object-oriented programming!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When I read sentiments like this it makes me want to leave the community. I find it so offensive that the Pharo community uses Smalltalk but wants to distance itself. It feels like theft or massive disrespect for the inventors of the language, or a complete lack of gratitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> C is older than Smalltalk and no one says "C is the cobol of low-level imperative languages". List is much older than C but no one wants to rename Lisp because it is perceived as old.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Smalltalk is a beautiful name, carefully chosen to differentiate and identify the system as different, not arrogant, not hieroglyphic. Further, Smalltalkl /is/ different and distinctive materially. Why anyone would be ashamed of that incredible heritage and pervasive influence is beyond me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Offended,
>>>>>> Eliot
>
>
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