Discussion:
[Pharo-dev] [pharo-project/pharo-core] ec7b0e: 60137
GitHub
2016-07-06 07:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Branch: refs/heads/6.0
Home: https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core
Commit: ec7b0efd3372758bb785c059576ee2264986477b
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core/commit/ec7b0efd3372758bb785c059576ee2264986477b
Author: Jenkins Build Server <***@pharo-project.org>
Date: 2016-07-06 (Wed, 06 Jul 2016)

Changed paths:
M Epicea.package/EpClassRemoval.class/instance/accessing/behaviorAffectedName.st
M Epicea.package/extension/Class/instance/asEpiceaRingDefinition.st
M Graphics-Canvas.package/FormCanvas.class/instance/other/warpFrom_toRect_.st
M Graphics-Display Objects.package/Form.class/instance/analyzing/rectangleEnclosingPixelsNotOfColor_.st
M Graphics-Display Objects.package/Form.class/instance/scaling%2C rotation/magnify_by_smoothing_.st
M Graphics-Primitives.package/BitBlt.class/class/deprecated/current.st
M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamed_in_.st
M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamed_in_put_.st
M OpalCompiler-Core.package/DebuggerMethodMapOpal.class/instance/public/tempNamesForContext_.st
A OpalCompiler-Tests.package/OCContextTempMappingTest.class/instance/test - block arguments/testAccessingBlockArgumentNoneOptimizedBlock.st
A OpalCompiler-Tests.package/OCContextTempMappingTest.class/instance/test - block arguments/testAccessingBlockArgumentOptimizedBlock.st
R ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script60136.st
A ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - scripts/script60137.st
R ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60136.st
A ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/pharo - updates/update60137.st
M ScriptLoader60.package/ScriptLoader.class/instance/public/commentForCurrentUpdate.st

Log Message:
-----------
60137
18690 deprecated BitBlt class>>#current
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18690

17434 debugger missing block local var for optimized blocks
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/17434

18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674

18608 Impossible to delete a class
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18608

http://files.pharo.org/image/60/60137.zip
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-07-06 08:12:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Marcus Denker
2016-07-06 10:13:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.

Marcus
Esteban Lorenzano
2016-07-06 10:28:10 UTC
Permalink
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems.
but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results)
not turning it off.
in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).

Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?

Esteban
Post by Marcus Denker
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
Andrei Chis
2016-07-06 11:51:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems.
but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then
run in background, and cache results)
not turning it off.
in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the
feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
This is how it's currently implemented but it doesn't solve all issues:
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName-sometimes-hangs-when-there-is-no-network
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
Post by Marcus Denker
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no
vote.
Post by Marcus Denker
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-07-06 12:17:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems.
but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results)
not turning it off.
in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18281/NetNameResolver-class-addressForName-sometimes-hangs-when-there-is-no-network
Yes, that is the core issue.

We need a reliable, non-blocking way to determine (or discover) if we have network or not.

Then we can react properly at the application level.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
Post by Marcus Denker
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
Esteban Lorenzano
2016-07-07 13:52:27 UTC
Permalink
I have to add here… solution is bad, because now projects are not shown EVEN if I activate it in settings :(
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
yes, I do not agree either but is true there where problems.
but IMO this would be solved just by putting a timeout in 1-2s (and then run in background, and cache results)
not turning it off.
in for my experience, turning something off is equivalent to remove the feature (but then is worst, because it becomes dead code inside image).
Anyway, any taker, to solve this in a proper way?
Esteban
Post by Marcus Denker
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
I only know that there where problems.
Marcus
stepharo
2016-07-06 16:14:31 UTC
Permalink
Who vote to put it in?

Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in
any occasion and not giving

a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction
and such glitches can spoil

our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."

So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.

I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to
on in the preferences.

Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is
remove. No it is off.

Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-07-06 18:19:55 UTC
Permalink
I'll try once more to explain.

You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.

Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.

For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.

Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.

Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !

So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.

The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.

Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Andrei Chis
2016-07-06 20:07:58 UTC
Permalink
+1
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place.
With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will
suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one
click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially
good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD
WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it
every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of
us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related
to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy
tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases
we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network
calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with
Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in
any occasion and not giving
Post by stepharo
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction
and such glitches can spoil
Post by stepharo
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to
on in the preferences.
Post by stepharo
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is
remove. No it is off.
Post by stepharo
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no
vote.
Ben Coman
2016-07-07 00:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
If the root cause is a blocking system call e.g....
"NetNameResolver class>>#addressForName: sometimes hangs when there is
no network"
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?18281&

this seems very hard to fix at the Image level, except maybe doing
in-Image name resolution instead of relying on the system library. I
found this...
http://forum.world.st/ANN-DnsClient-More-protocol-fun-td2303225.html

and...
http://www.squeaksource.com/dnsclient.html
http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html

cheers -ben
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Eliot Miranda
2016-07-07 00:34:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ben,
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place.
With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will
suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one
click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially
good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD
WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it
every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of
us would complain loudly.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is
related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the
guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce
cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
If the root cause is a blocking system call e.g....
"NetNameResolver class>>#addressForName: sometimes hangs when there is
no network"
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?18281&
this seems very hard to fix at the Image level, except maybe doing
in-Image name resolution instead of relying on the system library. I
found this...
http://forum.world.st/ANN-DnsClient-More-protocol-fun-td2303225.html
It'll be child's play when we have the threaded FFI.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
and...
http://www.squeaksource.com/dnsclient.html
http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html
cheers -ben
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some
network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the
same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network
call.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in
any occasion and not giving
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by stepharo
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction
and such glitches can spoil
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by stepharo
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to
on in the preferences.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by stepharo
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is
remove. No it is off.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by stepharo
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no
vote.
--
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot
stepharo
2016-07-08 09:21:54 UTC
Permalink
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo
frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.

Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but
it is one for me.

For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put
it on?

Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set
for my own usage.

So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are
loaded automatically.


Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just
turn the setting on.

I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I
ask you when is the last time

you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often
(may be too often)

and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.

Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-07-08 09:44:48 UTC
Permalink
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.

It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.

This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.

Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.

We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
stepharo
2016-07-08 10:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.
Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if
they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok
there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more
confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop
arguing.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2016-07-08 10:43:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.
Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok
there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop
arguing.
Well, you won, the feature is gone.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
stepharo
2016-07-08 10:46:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Do you think professional developers who use Pharo all day like crashes or hangs ? We are all the same here, we want a stable system.
It is not certain that the catalog download is the problem.
This specific feature that you think should only be enabled by those who want it (you call them pros) is exactly a beginner's feature: a way to discover every external library written. How ironic that you don't care.
Sven the students we have are not looking for published packages and if they need, they can use the catalog: entering XML and pressing ok
there is simple enough. It is not a complex ui. Spotter is a lot more confusing than the catalog UI. But dogma says the inverse so I will stop
arguing.
Well, you won, the feature is gone.
No it is not gone.
Update your preferences and help fixing the real problem and we will put
it back.

You see I produce Spotter videos for the mooc. Do you think that I
should have spent all this energy for something that I do not like.
Now we should be able to critic features.

Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Yes, newcomers hit all kinds of issues that more experienced users subconsciously avoid, being mindful for that is important. I think we all try to do that, by fixing things, not by turning things off.
We lack a proper process to decide these kinds of conflicts.
Again again and again: How many times do you see students having Pharo frozen because the internet connection in the classroom is fleaky.
Apparently turning off these people is not an issue to you. Perfect but it is one for me.
For your productivity boost why can't you click on one setting and put it on?
Tell me I do not understand. In my dev image I have several settings set for my own usage.
So why you cannot have one extra one? Especially since preferences are loaded automatically.
Then when we will find a way to address the real problem we can just turn the setting on.
I will have spent half of my life showing software to newbies and may I ask you when is the last time
you show Pharo to a guy that is learning programming? I do that often (may be too often)
and in bad situation like in Afrika but not only.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I'll try once more to explain.
You like the catalog, don't you ? It was your idea in the first place. With this feature you can just type XML, CSV, JSON or whatever and it will suggest a couple of catalog projects that you can install with just one click, no need to open any tool you don't even know. This is especially good for new people. IT IS A FANTASTIC FEATURE, IT IS THE WAY THINGS SHOULD WORK. It leverages all the work put in the catalog.
Is Spotter or any other part of Pharo perfect ? No.
For many people, Spotter make a huge functional difference, we use it every minute. If it would hang or block the image even once a day, any of us would complain loudly.
Conclusion: it works for 99% of the people/cases.
Even in the 1% where there is a problem, it is not 100% sure it is related to the catalog searching. In the last concrete issue reported, the guy tried disabling the catalog searching AND IT MADE NO DIFFERENCE !
So again, why turn it off ? It is an overreaction, not engineering.
The underlying problem is that in some very rare, hard to reproduce cases we cannot reliably detect that there is no network. That's about it.
Note also that almost every application or app today will do some network calls, this is how the world work - we should be able to do the same with Pharo, not run away and kill every feature that does a network call.
Post by stepharo
Who vote to put it in?
Seriously I think that my main concern is about getting Pharo stable in any occasion and not giving
a bad impression of the system. I takes enough time to build traction and such glitches can spoil
our effort in no time. "Yes Pharo froze."
So it would be nice to care take of such aspect.
I do not understand why super users do not manage to put a reference to on in the preferences.
Sorry esteban but I do not buy your argument that something off is remove. No it is off.
Stef
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by GitHub
18674 Turn spotter catalog off by default
https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/18674
We did not agree on this, at all, there was no public discussion, no vote.
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