Discussion:
Do we kill the catalog?
(too old to reply)
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-19 06:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys

What do we do with it?
What alternatives?

Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-19 06:46:31 UTC
Permalink
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.

Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-19 06:59:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
btw, I had this idea of

- using a STON spec instead a class (I think Dale has already something about it)
- using github as centralised repository to simplify the infrastructure, and to accept new projects as PRs :)

just… no time to implement it yet, but it should be fairly easy.

cheers,
Esteban
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Ben Coman
2018-04-19 07:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
btw, I had this idea of
- using a STON spec instead a class (I think Dale has already something about it)
- using github as centralised repository to simplify the infrastructure,
and to accept new projects as PRs :)
just
 no time to implement it yet, but it should be fairly easy.
cheers,
Esteban
This is a good idea. The STON could be easily edited directly with
github's web-based text editor
which would encourage third-parties to enhance the descriptions.

Maybe good to publish it as a github pages, with a custom domain to shield
against having to move away from github.
https://help.github.com/articles/about-supported-custom-domains/#custom-subdomains

cheers -ben
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 07:09:16 UTC
Permalink
The underlying questions (sorry for people that need subtitles) are:

- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place

Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?

- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package

- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?


@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.

- Needed immediate actions:
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).

What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.


Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Thierry Goubier
2018-04-20 09:01:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the
various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place
one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.

That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That would be an interesting concept, and maybe the right one, if the
alternative is updating a cryptic JSON format each time you commit
something in your project.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to
spend 10 minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.

The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it
creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.

For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a
project on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is
validated ... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the
project has a correct setup (project has tests visible in the
configurationOf, catalog does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new
release of Pharo, even stable because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated
in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags for Pharo versions are only granted if
project has been tested on CI by the Catalog for the current version
image you're in, for example.

We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into
the GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser
when I sort all packages under the configuration or baseline they are
specified in.

In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to
both project maintainers and users.

Thierry
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-20 09:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).

the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
that’s a one method change. Instead:

loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load

loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.

when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best package management we have at the moment.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That would be an interesting concept, and maybe the right one, if the alternative is updating a cryptic JSON format each time you commit something in your project.
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).

A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.

one STON file as I imagine would be something like:

project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah <http://github.com/someone/blah>",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}

and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to spend 10 minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a project on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is validated ... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the project has a correct setup (project has tests visible in the configurationOf, catalog does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new release of Pharo, even stable because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags for Pharo versions are only granted if project has been tested on CI by the Catalog for the current version image you're in, for example.
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into the GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser when I sort all packages under the configuration or baseline they are specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Thierry Goubier
2018-04-20 10:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
    - right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
    we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
And is it still in? Why then, on Pharo 7, is Catalog fetching SmaCC in
the Pharo5 meta repo?
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
Good point. Why wasn't it done?

I thought the choice of Gofer was on purpose, since other configurations
loaded in the image in the official build are done in the same way (i.e.
not Metacello).

On a more general point, this is a question to me. How does the Pharo
team, not using the project manager in its build process, intend to
properly define a project manager?
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet… gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hum, for me Metacello uses Gofer for loading. Not the reverse. (i.e.
Metacello preps a spec, set up the repositories right including
downloading, then ask Gofer to execute). Easy proof: when loaded via
Metacello, Metacello registers the load (spec used, etc...); loaded via
Gofer, nothing (i.e. you don't even know which spec was used in the
configuration to load the packages).

Please feel free to disprove.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That would be an interesting concept, and maybe the right one, if the
alternative is updating a cryptic JSON format each time you commit
something in your project.
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
No.

Just write that ston now for the current state of OSProcess (with all
versions and platforms supported).

Or write that ston for a project that has stable branches for all pharo
versions, from say 1.3 to now.

But, in a way, please do the way you like, and, well, a few years down
the line, we're back at the same situation as now.

Not that I wish it, but I can see when someone is solving a problem with
yet another way of having the problem.

Thierry
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to
spend 10 minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it
creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a
project on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project
is validated ... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the
project has a correct setup (project has tests visible in the
configurationOf, catalog does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new
release of Pharo, even stable because Iceberg breaks stuff when
updated in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags for Pharo versions are only
granted if project has been tested on CI by the Catalog for the
current version image you're in, for example.
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into
the GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser
when I sort all packages under the configuration or baseline they are
specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value
to both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Stef
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:46 AM, Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-20 13:33:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
And is it still in? Why then, on Pharo 7, is Catalog fetching SmaCC in the Pharo5 meta repo?
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
Good point. Why wasn't it done?
I thought the choice of Gofer was on purpose, since other configurations loaded in the image in the official build are done in the same way (i.e. not Metacello).
not true.
It is not possible to load configurations without metacello.
On a more general point, this is a question to me. How does the Pharo team, not using the project manager in its build process, intend to properly define a project manager?
What are you calling “the project manager” ?
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best package management we have at the moment.
Hum, for me Metacello uses Gofer for loading. Not the reverse. (i.e. Metacello preps a spec, set up the repositories right including downloading, then ask Gofer to execute). Easy proof: when loaded via Metacello, Metacello registers the load (spec used, etc...); loaded via Gofer, nothing (i.e. you don't even know which spec was used in the configuration to load the packages).
Please feel free to disprove.
Gofer uses metacello to load configurations. Metacello then uses Gofer to load packages. If through Gofer there is not registration, then is a bug of Metacello.
It is not possible for Pharo to load configurations without metacello.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That would be an interesting concept, and maybe the right one, if the alternative is updating a cryptic JSON format each time you commit something in your project.
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
No.
Just write that ston now for the current state of OSProcess (with all versions and platforms supported).
yes, you are confusing things.
you do not need to explicit anything of that :)

- you describe a project location and a version. You do not describe the project itself: that’s the work of a baseline.
- You also do not describe a version: That’s a tag (or a branch). The baseline (or baseline spec) in that branch describes the project in that moment.

when you release, you say: hey, I’m giving you version X. Not more than that.
Or write that ston for a project that has stable branches for all pharo versions, from say 1.3 to now.
why?
let’s suppose you want compatibility:

project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah <http://github.com/someone/blah>",
“versions” : {
#pharoLatest : ‘v7.0.0’;
#pharo6 : ‘v6.0.0’;
#pharo5 : ‘v5.0.0’;
#pharo4 : ‘v4.0.0’;
#pharo3 : ‘v3.0.0’;
#’gemstone3.30' : ‘v5.0.0’;
},
“description” : “Some project description"
}

again
 what’s cryptic or complicated there, more than what you already do in a baseline? Why is clearer in a baseline?
But, in a way, please do the way you like, and, well, a few years down the line, we're back at the same situation as now.
Not that I wish it, but I can see when someone is solving a problem with yet another way of having the problem.
Describing a project in a way that can be managed without needing to load a package into the image is another problem. A problem that is present since a lot and Dale and me talked a lot of times on how to fix it.
Having a STON with a spec of the baseline is an easy and clear way.
but that has nothing to do with storing releases in a discoverable way.

right now you need to create a new version on a configuration and copy that package into a metacello repository.
if you want to make them appear properly in catalog, you also need to implement some “cryptic” methods nobody does it right the first time.

Esteban
Thierry
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to spend 10 minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a project on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is validated ... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the project has a correct setup (project has tests visible in the configurationOf, catalog does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new release of Pharo, even stable because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags for Pharo versions are only granted if project has been tested on CI by the Catalog for the current version image you're in, for example.
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into the GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser when I sort all packages under the configuration or baseline they are specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Stephan Eggermont
2018-04-23 00:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thierry Goubier
No
+1
Post by Thierry Goubier
Just write that ston now for the current state of OSProcess (with all
versions and platforms supported).
Or write that ston for a project that has stable branches for all pharo
versions, from say 1.3 to now.
But, in a way, please do the way you like, and, well, a few years down
the line, we're back at the same situation as now.
Not that I wish it, but I can see when someone is solving a problem with
yet another way of having the problem.
Indeed.

Stephan
Cyril Ferlicot D.
2018-04-20 10:42:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
    - right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
    we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
not really. 
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
that’s a one method change. Instead: 
loadConfiguration 
Gofer it 
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration 
Metacello new 
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded. 
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hi,

Except if it changed recently, Gofer does not use Metacello behind.

At Synectique when I tried to clean all our configurations because it
was really hard to update them, I found some problems in the
configurations but the projects were loading. The reasons was that we
used Gofer and the bugs of gofer compensated the problems in the
configurations. After switching to Metacello the projects did not load
anymore and I needed to fix the configurations to make them clean.

So, if it worked with Gofer but not Metacello, I doubt Gofer use Metacello.
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
one STON file as I imagine would be something like: 
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-20 13:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet… gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hi,
Except if it changed recently, Gofer does not use Metacello behind.
At Synectique when I tried to clean all our configurations because it
was really hard to update them, I found some problems in the
configurations but the projects were loading. The reasons was that we
used Gofer and the bugs of gofer compensated the problems in the
configurations. After switching to Metacello the projects did not load
anymore and I needed to fix the configurations to make them clean.
So, if it worked with Gofer but not Metacello, I doubt Gofer use Metacello.
there is no way of loading a configuration/baseline without metacello.

Esteban
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
Guillermo Polito
2018-04-20 13:53:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

IMHO, the problem is not metacello or gofer but the fact that the catalog
uses the old Metacello API: i.e.,

Gofer new
repository: 'zzz';
configurationOf: 'XXX';
load.
(ConfigurationOfXXX project version: #YYY) load

instead of the *new* Metacello API

Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta
repo.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo. But
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hi,
Except if it changed recently, Gofer does not use Metacello behind.
At Synectique when I tried to clean all our configurations because it
was really hard to update them, I found some problems in the
configurations but the projects were loading. The reasons was that we
used Gofer and the bugs of gofer compensated the problems in the
configurations. After switching to Metacello the projects did not load
anymore and I needed to fix the configurations to make them clean.
So, if it worked with Gofer but not Metacello, I doubt Gofer use
Metacello.
there is no way of loading a configuration/baseline without metacello.
Esteban
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
--
Guille Polito

Research Engineer

Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille

CRIStAL - UMR 9189

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
<http://www.cnrs.fr>*


*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io>

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13
Cyril Ferlicot
2018-04-20 14:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guillermo Polito
Hi all,
IMHO, the problem is not metacello or gofer but the fact that the catalog
uses the old Metacello API: i.e.,
Gofer new
repository: 'zzz';
configurationOf: 'XXX';
load.
(ConfigurationOfXXX project version: #YYY) load
instead of the *new* Metacello API
Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'
This is exactly what I had in mind for "loading via gofer" vs "loading via
Metacello" since I don't know the implementation behind.
Post by Guillermo Polito
--
Guille Polito
Research Engineer
Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille
CRIStAL - UMR 9189
French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
<http://www.cnrs.fr>*
*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io>
*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 17:27:16 UTC
Permalink
Hi guille

should we open an issue and update the catalog?

Stef
Post by Guillermo Polito
Hi all,
IMHO, the problem is not metacello or gofer but the fact that the catalog
uses the old Metacello API: i.e.,
Gofer new
repository: 'zzz';
configurationOf: 'XXX';
load.
(ConfigurationOfXXX project version: #YYY) load
instead of the *new* Metacello API
Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta
repo.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo.
But
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hi,
Except if it changed recently, Gofer does not use Metacello behind.
At Synectique when I tried to clean all our configurations because it
was really hard to update them, I found some problems in the
configurations but the projects were loading. The reasons was that we
used Gofer and the bugs of gofer compensated the problems in the
configurations. After switching to Metacello the projects did not load
anymore and I needed to fix the configurations to make them clean.
So, if it worked with Gofer but not Metacello, I doubt Gofer use
Metacello.
there is no way of loading a configuration/baseline without metacello.
Esteban
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with configurations).
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
--
Guille Polito
Research Engineer
Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille
CRIStAL - UMR 9189
French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
<http://www.cnrs.fr>*
*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io>
*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 17:30:30 UTC
Permalink
So what are the key "immediate" action to improve the situation

- Support for Baseline (no idea what it means)
- Use Metacello API.
Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'
- What else?

Stef
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guille
should we open an issue and update the catalog?
Stef
On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 3:53 PM, Guillermo Polito <
Post by Guillermo Polito
Hi all,
IMHO, the problem is not metacello or gofer but the fact that the catalog
uses the old Metacello API: i.e.,
Gofer new
repository: 'zzz';
configurationOf: 'XXX';
load.
(ConfigurationOfXXX project version: #YYY) load
instead of the *new* Metacello API
Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Thierry Goubier
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of
the various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single
place one should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta
repo.
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
not really.
if you put your project in the squeak meta repo it will not even be
listed (is old stuff and we are not listing those).
the idea was to add a project in its corresponding development repo.
But
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
is an uncomfortable way, yes (and it was a patch, not meant to last)
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
loadConfiguration
Gofer it
url: self repositoryUrl;
configurationOf: self name;
load
loadConfiguration
Metacello new
repository: self repositoryUrl;
configuration: self name;
load.
when I made catalog, Metacello usage was not so expanded.
Yet
 gofer will use metacello to load so, yes, it will use the best
package management we have at the moment.
Hi,
Except if it changed recently, Gofer does not use Metacello behind.
At Synectique when I tried to clean all our configurations because it
was really hard to update them, I found some problems in the
configurations but the projects were loading. The reasons was that we
used Gofer and the bugs of gofer compensated the problems in the
configurations. After switching to Metacello the projects did not load
anymore and I needed to fix the configurations to make them clean.
So, if it worked with Gofer but not Metacello, I doubt Gofer use
Metacello.
there is no way of loading a configuration/baseline without metacello.
Esteban
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
very unlikely.
a spec made in STON you just have to modify it each time you do a
release (which is exactly what you have to do now with
configurations).
Post by Cyril Ferlicot D.
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
A crawler will not handle the need to publish a released version.
project {
“name” : "blah",
“url” : "http://github.com/someone/blah",
“lastVersion” : “v1.0.0",
“description” : “Some project description"
}
and maybe a couple more. How’s that cryptic?
maybe you are confusing things?
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
--
Guille Polito
Research Engineer
Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille
CRIStAL - UMR 9189
French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
<http://www.cnrs.fr>*
*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io>
*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13
Sean P. DeNigris
2018-04-20 11:53:16 UTC
Permalink
how do one publish and updates a project on the Catalog? What has one to
do in CI to ensure a project is validated
To get started, it might be helpful to provide some snippets that people can
insert into their own project's CI for this. I'll do a spike when I have a
moment…



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 17:23:27 UTC
Permalink
Thierry

May be you are nervous these days. But try to relax and get a positive mindset.
This is not perfect but it is there. You know that we are all full and
even more.
So just criticizing is not productive.
Post by Thierry Goubier
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the
various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place one
should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
If you find that funny it is not.
The point of having multiple repo was to make sure that contrary to
the old squeak experience
projects would load.
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package management we
have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
I do not get what you mean but do not reply.
I do not think that it will be interested. You are in a ranting mode
and it deos not help.
Post by Thierry Goubier
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to spend 10
minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
Come on. There are fly by help
Post by Thierry Goubier
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it
creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a project
on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is validated
... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the project has a
correct setup (project has tests visible in the configurationOf, catalog
does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new release of Pharo, even stable
because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags
for Pharo versions are only granted if project has been tested on CI by the
Catalog for the current version image you're in, for example.
I have a long todo list too. We just did not get the resources for it.
Let us face it.
Post by Thierry Goubier
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into the
GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser when I sort
all packages under the configuration or baseline they are specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to
both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Peter Uhnák
2018-04-20 17:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Cargo is orthogonal to the need of a centralised repository.
Yes, its idea is to provide one
 but we will need a central repo, always.


Yes, but it already has STON manfiests to define the projects
(project-metadata.ston). So why not use/extend the same file.

Peter
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Thierry
May be you are nervous these days. But try to relax and get a positive mindset.
This is not perfect but it is there. You know that we are all full and
even more.
So just criticizing is not productive.
Post by Thierry Goubier
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the
various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place
one
Post by Thierry Goubier
should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
If you find that funny it is not.
The point of having multiple repo was to make sure that contrary to
the old squeak experience
projects would load.
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package
management we
Post by Thierry Goubier
have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
I do not get what you mean but do not reply.
I do not think that it will be interested. You are in a ranting mode
and it deos not help.
Post by Thierry Goubier
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to
spend 10
Post by Thierry Goubier
minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
Come on. There are fly by help
Post by Thierry Goubier
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it
creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a
project
Post by Thierry Goubier
on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is validated
... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the project has a
correct setup (project has tests visible in the configurationOf, catalog
does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new release of Pharo, even
stable
Post by Thierry Goubier
because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated in Pharo 6.1, for example).
Tags
Post by Thierry Goubier
for Pharo versions are only granted if project has been tested on CI by
the
Post by Thierry Goubier
Catalog for the current version image you're in, for example.
I have a long todo list too. We just did not get the resources for it.
Let us face it.
Post by Thierry Goubier
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into
the
Post by Thierry Goubier
GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser when I
sort
Post by Thierry Goubier
all packages under the configuration or baseline they are specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to
both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 17:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Uhnák
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Cargo is orthogonal to the need of a centralised repository.
Yes, its idea is to provide one… but we will need a central repo, always.
Yes, but it already has STON manfiests to define the projects
(project-metadata.ston). So why not use/extend the same file.
+1
Post by Peter Uhnák
Peter
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
Thierry
May be you are nervous these days. But try to relax and get a positive mindset.
This is not perfect but it is there. You know that we are all full and
even more.
So just criticizing is not productive.
Post by Thierry Goubier
One of the issues I have with the Catalog is that it made a mess of the
various MetaRrepo for Pharo... Showing in the end that the single place one
should put a ConfigurationOf for Pharo is the squeak meta repo.
If you find that funny it is not.
The point of having multiple repo was to make sure that contrary to
the old squeak experience
projects would load.
Post by Thierry Goubier
That in addition the Catalog doesn't even use the best package management we
have at a given point is just salt rubbed in the wound.
I do not get what you mean but do not reply.
I do not think that it will be interested. You are in a ranting mode
and it deos not help.
Post by Thierry Goubier
As you wish. I know it belongs to one of these GUIs where I have to spend 10
minutes to try to remember what the icons mean. But that's just me.
Come on. There are fly by help
Post by Thierry Goubier
The key point to me is that the Catalog should reduce the friction it
creates, not that the Catalog has to be a perfect solution.
For example, do user-stories on it: how do one publish and updates a project
on the Catalog? What has one to do in CI to ensure a project is validated
... Can the catalog just takes care of that part, if the project has a
correct setup (project has tests visible in the configurationOf, catalog
does the CI stuff of testing it upon each new release of Pharo, even stable
because Iceberg breaks stuff when updated in Pharo 6.1, for example). Tags
for Pharo versions are only granted if project has been tested on CI by the
Catalog for the current version image you're in, for example.
I have a long todo list too. We just did not get the resources for it.
Let us face it.
Post by Thierry Goubier
We know how to explore and manipulate project specs already; look into the
GT tools for the code, and I also use a variant in my AltBrowser when I sort
all packages under the configuration or baseline they are specified in.
In short, make it so that the Catalog is low friction and bring value to
both project maintainers and users.
Thierry
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Stef
On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 8:46 AM, Esteban Lorenzano
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-20 09:32:14 UTC
Permalink
hi,
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
STON is easier because :

- you do not need to load a package to know a project spec.
- you can edit it from outside, then participation is easier (in particular, people can add PRs and one can edit an STON file even in github site).

yet, yes
 regardless the choice we should have a “publish” plugin in iceberg.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
but if they do not care to put their project in the cataog (whatever it is), is mostly sure they will not care to make it loadable (then validation is futile).

btw
 this query will give us all projects on github that with filetree format:

https://github.com/search?q=filename%3A.filetree+.package&type=Code&ref=advsearch <https://github.com/search?q=filename:.filetree+.package&type=Code&ref=advsearch> (1531, but it will match each .filetree appearance so they are a lot less
 )

and this one in tonel:

https://github.com/search?q=filename%3A.properties+tonel&type=Code&ref=advsearch <https://github.com/search?q=filename:.properties+tonel&type=Code&ref=advsearch> (just 49 for now :(, but unique repositories :P)

we can put those links in pharo README to make them easier to find
 but of course this does not covers bitbucket or gitlab (they may have a public search API, but I don’t know it)
 best approach is to have a catalog.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
May be we need a crawler?
we can, but we cannot know what is there in fact.
btw
 before we had sthub, but also ss, ss3 and others, so it was never clear about not published projects.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
Cargo is orthogonal to the need of a centralised repository.
Yes, its idea is to provide one
 but we will need a central repo, always.

cheers,
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Hernán Morales Durand
2018-04-20 17:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stef,
Post by Stephane Ducasse
- how do we have a central place to declare projects
- right now in Smalltalkhub/list is a nice way to find projects
with the move to github
we should get a central place
Christophe has been working on project repository and we should check
what he has.
@Christophe?
- how do we make sure that we can validated (I can load this version
of XMLParser in that version of Pharo)
-- in this version of Pharo what is the latest working version of this package
- if people do not maintain/add "configuration" into the catalog what
is the point?
-- How can we ease the participation to the catalog? Esteban I do not
care about the format.
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That's why I try to do with PI https://github.com/hernanmd/pi

It's 100% command-line, which I know smalltalkers don't love.

However after working with Python, R, Perl, etc. I saw the world
expects a pretty standard package installation pattern.
I feel (outsider) people really don't care if there is a Catalog,
StHub, PepeHub.

Please everyone feel free to fork and add/fix anything you need from PI.

Hernan
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban A. Maringolo
2018-04-20 17:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
Hi Stef,
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Do you think that editing STON is easier than a class? I think that we
should have a button.
Look people do not care about posting their project into the repo.
May be we need a crawler?
That's why I try to do with PI https://github.com/hernanmd/pi
It's 100% command-line, which I know smalltalkers don't love.
However after working with Python, R, Perl, etc. I saw the world
expects a pretty standard package installation pattern.
+1
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
I feel (outsider) people really don't care if there is a Catalog,
StHub, PepeHub.
We have the right (and probably the reasons) to do things "our way", but
it shouldn't surprise us if outsiders and newcomers reject that way
because it feels weird, even if is better than what they're used to.


Regards,
--
Esteban A. Maringolo
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 19:38:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
That's why I try to do with PI https://github.com/hernanmd/pi
It's 100% command-line, which I know smalltalkers don't love.
do not draw conclusions like that.
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
However after working with Python, R, Perl, etc. I saw the world
expects a pretty standard package installation pattern.
I feel (outsider) people really don't care if there is a Catalog,
StHub, PepeHub.
This is not for the others this is for US.
And We plan to have a command line interface for the launcher and
also for pakbot.
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
Please everyone feel free to fork and add/fix anything you need from PI.
Hernan
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Hernán Morales Durand
2018-04-20 22:58:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
That's why I try to do with PI https://github.com/hernanmd/pi
It's 100% command-line, which I know smalltalkers don't love.
do not draw conclusions like that.
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
However after working with Python, R, Perl, etc. I saw the world
expects a pretty standard package installation pattern.
I feel (outsider) people really don't care if there is a Catalog,
StHub, PepeHub.
This is not for the others this is for US.
And We plan to have a command line interface for the launcher and
also for pakbot.
What is pakbot?

Let me know if we can join efforts, it would be sad to see unnecessary
duplication.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
Please everyone feel free to fork and add/fix anything you need from PI.
Hernan
Post by Stephane Ducasse
@Peter no cargo is not dead now christophe cannot fix all the time the
PharoLauncher and make progress
on Cargo -> Pakbot
And yes I really want to have something that we can use soon.
-- support baselineOf
-- how could we make sure that we can publish in multiple repo? (After
this is just a copy so I click on the package
and say copy to).
What else.
@thierry the story I do not use the catalog because the icons are not
understandable is not really good to me.
Stef
Post by Esteban Lorenzano
why to kill it?
right now we do not have a replacement.
Esteban
Post by Stephane Ducasse
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-21 06:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
Post by Stephane Ducasse
This is not for the others this is for US.
And We plan to have a command line interface for the launcher and
also for pakbot.
What is pakbot?
the new name of Cargo
pakbot = paquebot in french = cargo in english :)
Post by Hernán Morales Durand
Let me know if we can join efforts, it would be sad to see unnecessary
duplication.
tx that you ask.
@Christophe what would be case?

From my side,
What we would like to have
- is to use Clap the new command handler system (may be Clap needs
another pass but we should push it)
- if clap is not ready either fix it or use the old command line handler
- add command line support to the launcher to download and install
image and also packages.


Stef
Cyril Ferlicot
2018-04-21 09:35:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ducasse
the new name of Cargo
pakbot = paquebot in french = cargo in english :)
Just for the record:

https://github.com/demarey/cargo/issues/32

To explain the name change.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
tx that you ask.
@Christophe what would be case?
From my side,
What we would like to have
- is to use Clap the new command handler system (may be Clap needs
another pass but we should push it)
- if clap is not ready either fix it or use the old command line handler
- add command line support to the launcher to download and install
image and also packages.
Stef
--
Cyril Ferlicot
https://ferlicot.fr
Torsten Bergmann
2018-04-19 08:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!

Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.

Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2018-04-19 08:57:47 UTC
Permalink
I also think that the catalog is important. If anything is wrong with it we should fix it.

The problem is that the catalog is never working well with the current unstable version of Pharo (today 7). Not all package developers take the trouble of checking/porting all the time, that is perfectly understandable.

Moving the catalog to GitHub with a STON meta description is a good idea, of course. All we need is a clean object representing the meta info, the rest comes for free.
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Thierry Goubier
2018-04-19 09:25:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I also think that the catalog is important. If anything is wrong with it we should fix it.
I agree. Issues:

- The Catalog doesn't use Metacello, so things loaded via the catalog
are not registered properly (upgrades / conflicts)
- The Catalog mix multiple Meta repos and you never know, given a
configuration in multiple repos, which one the Catalog is giving you.
- The Catalog icons are ... non understandable.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
The problem is that the catalog is never working well with the current unstable version of Pharo (today 7). Not all package developers take the trouble of checking/porting all the time, that is perfectly understandable.
Never tried that one
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Moving the catalog to GitHub with a STON meta description is a good idea, of course. All we need is a clean object representing the meta info, the rest comes for free.
Maybe. I would like a automated way of extracting the json from a
baseline or configuration... to reduce the friction of using the
catalog.

Thierry
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Gabriel Cotelli
2018-04-19 09:25:38 UTC
Permalink
And please support the use of baselines. Nobody wants to also mantain a
ConfigurationOf just for the catalog when using baselines.
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
I also think that the catalog is important. If anything is wrong with it we should fix it.
The problem is that the catalog is never working well with the current
unstable version of Pharo (today 7). Not all package developers take the
trouble of checking/porting all the time, that is perfectly understandable.
Moving the catalog to GitHub with a STON meta description is a good idea,
of course. All we need is a clean object representing the meta info, the
rest comes for free.
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now
directly want to
Post by Torsten Bergmann
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent
itself each day
Post by Torsten Bergmann
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending,
improving and supporting
Post by Torsten Bergmann
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not
always.
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-19 10:26:02 UTC
Permalink
And please support the use of baselines. Nobody wants to also mantain a ConfigurationOf just for the catalog when using baselines.
that’s IMO the most important part we need to cover.

Esteban
I also think that the catalog is important. If anything is wrong with it we should fix it.
The problem is that the catalog is never working well with the current unstable version of Pharo (today 7). Not all package developers take the trouble of checking/porting all the time, that is perfectly understandable.
Moving the catalog to GitHub with a STON meta description is a good idea, of course. All we need is a clean object representing the meta info, the rest comes for free.
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Stephan Eggermont
2018-04-19 10:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gabriel Cotelli
And please support the use of baselines. Nobody wants to also mantain a
ConfigurationOf just for the catalog when using baselines.
That sounds like a non-problem. One file that never needs to change. Let’s
solve the problems first

Stephan
Peter Uhnák
2018-04-19 11:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephane Ducasse
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Is Cargo dead? I thought that was supposed to be the alternative.
Post by Stephane Ducasse
That sounds like a non-problem. One file that never needs to change. Let’s
solve the problems first
How so? If I want for the catalog to load a specific version of Git(Hub)
project, then I need to specify a tag. Which means every time I make a new
release, I need to update the configuration. At least this is how I saw
other people were addressing it.

Peter
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-20 06:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Hi torsten

the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.

Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Torsten Bergmann
2018-04-21 13:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Stephane Ducasse
2018-04-21 13:31:05 UTC
Permalink
Torsten

Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.

Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?

Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.

Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Torsten Bergmann
2018-04-22 13:29:49 UTC
Permalink
Hi Stef,

do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.

If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.

Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
leads to the unfortunate situation:

- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)

I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.

Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".

Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
monty
2018-04-23 22:49:57 UTC
Permalink
+1.

Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso. And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?

___
montyos.wordpress.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi Stef,
do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.
If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.
Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)
I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.
Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".
Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2018-04-24 05:31:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by monty
+1.
Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso. And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?
___
montyos.wordpress.com
Nice blog, BTW!

Your XML work is much appreciated.
Post by monty
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi Stef,
do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.
If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.
Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)
I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.
Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".
Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Thierry Goubier
2018-04-24 07:29:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Post by monty
+1.
Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso. And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?
___
montyos.wordpress.com
Nice blog, BTW!
And I note: Publishing Configurations to Pharo Meta Repositories

https://montyos.wordpress.com/2018/04/22/publishing-configurations-to-pharo-meta-repositories/

Thierry
Guillermo Polito
2018-04-24 07:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

I think that we are all aligned. Stef may be "too strong" in his way of
talking, but he raised an issue: we should probably do an iteration on the
catalog. And I think we all agree on that?

So, what would be a list of tasks for it? (I copy past what Stef put before)

- Use Metacello API.
Metacello new
repository: 'zzz'
configurationOf: 'XXX'
loadVersion: #'YYY'


This point should is easy. I can open an issue and work on it today.


- Support for Baseline (no idea what it means)

This point requires that we agree on how to publish baselines.
Should we continue providing configurations that point to the
baselines? I've read some rants against it.
I know it may be "uncomfortable", but publishing some meta-data in a
repository in XXX technology is kind of the same...
We can argue about visibility and smalltalkhub's stability (I've seen
new users struggling to create an account and making a satisfactory
login), but this can be a separate issue.


- What else?


Now, I also think about what to do with the meta-repo's. Should Pharo7 see
MetaRepo for pharo 5 and pharo 6 and pharo 4? or should only see the one
for pharo 7?

What about Pharo 6? What are the meta-repo's it is looking for?
--
Guille Polito

Research Engineer

Centre de Recherche en Informatique, Signal et Automatique de Lille

CRIStAL - UMR 9189

French National Center for Scientific Research - *http://www.cnrs.fr
<http://www.cnrs.fr>*


*Web:* *http://guillep.github.io* <http://guillep.github.io>

*Phone: *+33 06 52 70 66 13
Sean P. DeNigris
2018-04-24 13:31:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Guillermo Polito
Should we continue providing configurations that point to the
baselines? I've read some rants against it.
I know it may be "uncomfortable", but publishing some meta-data in a
repository in XXX technology is kind of the same...
This seems like an implementation detail. IHMO what people are really
complaining about is lack of tool support to map some standard, repeatable
trustability system like a Config's #stable and #development to a baseline
that refers to an exact snapshot of code (i.e. commitish in git parlance
IIUC).



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Thierry Goubier
2018-04-24 13:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sean, Guille,
Post by Sean P. DeNigris
Post by Guillermo Polito
Should we continue providing configurations that point to the
baselines? I've read some rants against it.
I know it may be "uncomfortable", but publishing some meta-data in a
repository in XXX technology is kind of the same...
Baselines are simple. If using a baseline in the Catalog forces it to
be more complex (like need to add a repository url in the baseline),
then do not do it and only support configurations.
Post by Sean P. DeNigris
This seems like an implementation detail. IHMO what people are really
complaining about is lack of tool support to map some standard, repeatable
trustability system like a Config's #stable and #development to a baseline
that refers to an exact snapshot of code (i.e. commitish in git parlance
IIUC).
Sort of.

A typical git-based development is one tag or branch per pharo
version, hence one BaselineOf per supported Pharo version.

A single configuration in the Catalog can triage on those baselines,
and be used by multiple Pharo versions (4, 5, 6, 7, etc...)

This would point out to having only one repository for the Catalog
(for all Pharo versions); but the ability for the Catalog to filter
out Configurations that are not updated on newer versions.

Bonus: if you're tracking Pharo versions in your branches (if you have
pharo5.0, pharo6.0, pharo7.0 branches, for example), it may be
possible to write a generic url in the configurationOf, like that:

repository: 'github://dalehenrich/filetree:pharo', SystemVersion
current dottedMajorMinor ,'_dev/repository'

Bonus+: you can also play with Unix / Windows dependent branches
(because you can also query additional system attributes)

Bonus++: Smalltalkhub repositories would still work...

Feature: it would be nice to be able to test if the current
version-dependent branch or tag exists on the target (i.e. query
github), then it would be easy to write something like -> no pharo8.0
branch on repository ? Not available on Pharo8.

Thierry
Post by Sean P. DeNigris
-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Sean P. DeNigris
2018-04-24 23:56:37 UTC
Permalink
If using a baseline in the Catalog forces it to be more complex…
I didn't think we were discussing changing baselines themselves, just a
better adapter layer than hand-edited Configs
A typical git-based development is one tag or branch per pharo
version, hence one BaselineOf per supported Pharo version.
Hmm, I didn't know that. I have not been using that workflow, but
'*-PlatformPharo60' packages. I wonder what the tradeoffs are…



-----
Cheers,
Sean
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Developers-f1294837.html
Guillermo Polito
2018-05-03 16:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Just for the record

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/f/cases/21825/Improve-Catalog-loading
https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/1292

Feel free to review or to propose other PRs,
Guille

monty
2018-04-24 18:17:22 UTC
Permalink
Thanks!

___
montyos.wordpress.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 1:31 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Post by monty
+1.
Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso. And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?
___
montyos.wordpress.com
Nice blog, BTW!
Your XML work is much appreciated.
Post by monty
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi Stef,
do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.
If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.
Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)
I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.
Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".
Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
Esteban Lorenzano
2018-04-24 07:42:19 UTC
Permalink
hi,
Post by monty
+1.
Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso.
that’s clearly because you didn’t see nautilus at the inside.
In fact, calypso started like that… we wanted to refactor nautilus into something usable, but after losing two months of Denis work, we decided to go other direction, since it was just impossible to do it properly without doing it again. And the effort of doing it from scratch was less than “destroy the house for the inside but let the façade” that would have been working with Nautilus. Also, in the case of Nautilus (or any system browser), there is the adding complexity of refactoring within itself.
Not everything can be refactored/patched up to the infinite.
Post by monty
And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?
catalog was a “temporary piece” that stayed for years.
it was never intend to stay because it has some important limitations.
said that, it can evolve from the quasi-prototype it is now (I should know, it was me who did it) to a real catalog.

curiously, I’m thinking one part of making it better would be simplify it, but that’s another story.

I wonder why people is so concerned about the use of “killing catalog” phrase. If you know the history of Pharo, we never “kill” anything we do not have a replacement for it so it was never in the table a proposal of just removing it. But to be good it needs:

- some better way of collect baselines than force to build a configuration
- a better place to be
- some kind of validation rules
- etc, etc, etc.

So well, in this case maybe refactor it is not an option, since many of the assumptions it has are no longer valid.

cheers,
Esteban
Post by monty
___
montyos.wordpress.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi Stef,
do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.
If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.
Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)
I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.
Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".
Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
monty
2018-04-24 18:10:32 UTC
Permalink
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 at 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
hi,
Post by monty
+1.
Replacing is sometimes necessary (Sven's stream work is an obvious example), but I don't see why Nautilus had to be junked rather than gradually evolved into Calypso.
that’s clearly because you didn’t see nautilus at the inside.
Actually, I did see the inside, to improve its SUnit integration.
In fact, calypso started like that… we wanted to refactor nautilus into something usable, but after losing two months of Denis work, we decided to go other direction, since it was just impossible to do it properly without doing it again. And the effort of doing it from scratch was less than “destroy the house for the inside but let the façade” that would have been working with Nautilus. Also, in the case of Nautilus (or any system browser), there is the adding complexity of refactoring within itself.
Not everything can be refactored/patched up to the infinite.
Post by monty
And I don't see why the catalog can't be gradually evolved into something better. Killing it off would be discouraging to the users who went through the trouble of adding #catalogXXX methods to their configs and publishing them to the meta repos. Why would they bother adopting whatever replaces the catalog if they think it will just get killed off too?
catalog was a “temporary piece” that stayed for years.
it was never intend to stay because it has some important limitations.
said that, it can evolve from the quasi-prototype it is now (I should know, it was me who did it) to a real catalog.
curiously, I’m thinking one part of making it better would be simplify it, but that’s another story.
- some better way of collect baselines than force to build a configuration
- a better place to be
- some kind of validation rules
- etc, etc, etc.
So well, in this case maybe refactor it is not an option, since many of the assumptions it has are no longer valid.
cheers,
Esteban
Post by monty
___
montyos.wordpress.com
Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi Stef,
do not worry - I'm fully relaxed. It is you - who suggested to kill the catalog - without having
or proposing a suitable alternative yet. If you want to route the thread to talking about "idiots"
and "assholes" you go offtopic and I guess I have nothing more to contribute to the discussion.
If it was not clear from my writing: I only expressed my wish that we should better improve it
instead of killing it. That's all.
Because anytime we have a better idea we get more disruptive in what we provide ... and this
- that we replace our own stuff with newer ones again and again (which can but must not be good
as things get more diverse and complicated over time)
- that users have to know how things historically have been progressed to find its way
through Pharo (including the terms and tools we use)
I would not see this as a rant - but rather a true effect we can spot on many places in our
ecosystem already.
Long story short: I would vote for the "fix" if the sole other option is to "remove".
Bye
T.
Gesendet: Samstag, 21. April 2018 um 15:31 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Torsten
Sometimes you should relax. Because if you remember I pushed the
catalog (in fact I love it and we need a much more powerful one)
and I even improved it. I made it better to automatically add MC repositories.
Of course Thierry is exagerating.
Now we should fix or remove it. Simple no?
Now you can rant in your corner thinking that I'm asshole.
This is ok for me.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Even there is no learning from the past - it's deja vu all over again...
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. April 2018 um 08:53 Uhr
Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi torsten
the wise shows the moon, the idiot sees his finger.
Stef
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Now today you had loading trouble with Smacc from Catalog ... and now directly want to
kill catalog. Wow!
Sometimes I have the impression that our community tries to reinvent itself each day
doing it differently (but not only better) instead of extending, improving and supporting
what we have have done before. Which sometimes is good ... but not always.
Thx
T.
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 19. April 2018 um 08:42 Uhr
Betreff: [Pharo-dev] Do we kill the catalog?
Hi guys
What do we do with it?
What alternatives?
Stef
___
montyos.wordpress.com
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