Discussion:
[Pharo-project] about video games
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Stéphane Ducasse
2010-03-14 21:09:45 UTC
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A friend of mine sent this interesting links

http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.

Stef
Patrick Barroca
2010-03-14 23:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Really interesting.

The last sentence from the first link, when the kid says "I'm just
cheating the game", makes me wonder if scientists are kids trying to
cheat the real world game ;)

On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 10:09 PM, St?phane Ducasse
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
A friend of mine sent this interesting links
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.
Stef
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Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
--
Patrick Barroca
Michael J. Forster
2010-03-15 00:59:07 UTC
Permalink
On 2010-03-14, at 16:09, St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
A friend of mine sent this interesting links
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.
Stef
The students might have employed the scientific method, but the
article itself is not a good example of even populist science writing.

The author states that enrollment in the sciences has fallen because
of boring presentation of facts and that video games offer a
rejuvenated quest for facts. How do we know that enrollment has
declined for that claimed reason? How do we know that it's not the
subject matter of video games that interests the students, and that
students won't shoe the same disinterest when we apply video games to,
say, biology or particle physics?

I would never discard a new viable approach to teaching and learning,
but this sounds a lot like the ethanol solution to climate change.

Mike
Igor Stasenko
2010-03-15 01:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
A friend of mine sent this interesting links
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.
Stef
The students might have employed the scientific method, but the article
itself is ?not a good example of even populist science writing.
The author states that enrollment in the sciences has fallen because of
boring presentation of facts and that video games offer a rejuvenated quest
for facts. How do we know that enrollment has declined for that claimed
reason? How do we know that it's not the subject matter of video games that
interests the students, and that students won't shoe the same disinterest
when we apply video games to, say, biology or particle physics?
I would never discard a new viable approach to teaching and learning, but
this sounds a lot like the ethanol solution to climate change.
Hmm, i didn't read a second link, but from a first one i think it says that
it doesn't makes students to be more interested in theory or
fundamental science.
What it does, is teaching them the way of thinking, exactly how
scientific method works.
So, then, once they realising that, it is much easier for them to
learn more diffucult things
and apply the same approach to a different areas.
Mike ?_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Michael J. Forster
2010-03-15 01:54:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Michael J. Forster
On 2010-03-14, at 16:09, St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
A friend of mine sent this interesting links
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.
Stef
The students might have employed the scientific method, but the article
itself is not a good example of even populist science writing.
The author states that enrollment in the sciences has fallen
because of
boring presentation of facts and that video games offer a
rejuvenated quest
for facts. How do we know that enrollment has declined for that claimed
reason? How do we know that it's not the subject matter of video games that
interests the students, and that students won't shoe the same
disinterest
when we apply video games to, say, biology or particle physics?
I would never discard a new viable approach to teaching and
learning, but
this sounds a lot like the ethanol solution to climate change.
Hmm, i didn't read a second link, but from a first one i think it says that
it doesn't makes students to be more interested in theory or
fundamental science.
What it does, is teaching them the way of thinking, exactly how
scientific method works.
So, then, once they realising that, it is much easier for them to
learn more diffucult things
and apply the same approach to a different areas.
Well, as I said, the articles themselves are hardly scientific in
their assertions and analysis.

My point is that, as I have observed in students I have studied with
and those I have taught, understanding the scientific method is not
the hurdle. Finding the motivation and patience to carry out the slow
painstaking work of applying that scientific method -- doing the work
of science -- is what turns people away. Science is very hard work,
and, materialistically, the pay sucks.

So, if I were to reason as recklessly as the authors, I would argue
that as much of the problem lies with a generation of instant-
gratification seeking people as it does with boring old science
classes. Further, I might rant that it was video games that created
that problem. Heck, the best that we can hope for is that these kids
will end up applying the scientific method to online poker.

Of course, that wouldn't be very scientific of me ;-)

Anyway, yes, it was worth a read. Thanks for that, Stephane.

Mike
Stéphane Ducasse
2010-03-15 06:00:39 UTC
Permalink
the second is scary :)
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
A friend of mine sent this interesting links
http://www.wired.com/gaming/gamingreviews/commentary/games/2008/09/gamesfrontiers_0908
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/jan2009/id20090114_362962.htm
Worth to read.
Stef
The students might have employed the scientific method, but the article
itself is not a good example of even populist science writing.
The author states that enrollment in the sciences has fallen because of
boring presentation of facts and that video games offer a rejuvenated quest
for facts. How do we know that enrollment has declined for that claimed
reason? How do we know that it's not the subject matter of video games that
interests the students, and that students won't shoe the same disinterest
when we apply video games to, say, biology or particle physics?
I would never discard a new viable approach to teaching and learning, but
this sounds a lot like the ethanol solution to climate change.
Hmm, i didn't read a second link, but from a first one i think it says that
it doesn't makes students to be more interested in theory or
fundamental science.
What it does, is teaching them the way of thinking, exactly how
scientific method works.
So, then, once they realising that, it is much easier for them to
learn more diffucult things
and apply the same approach to a different areas.
Mike _______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Igor Stasenko
2010-03-15 08:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
the second is scary :)
WoW and alike is the most stupid games i ever seen. What is
frustrating that these games are not progressing over a years,
no! Instead i see the tendency how they becoming less and less
challenging to players.
Every new game i read about or taking a look - everything is the same,
just with more fancy graphics.

Raising a herd of 'creative' executives using WoW, would be a
stupidiest thing which i would do :)
Because its pool of creativity is very shallow and primitive.

"The degree of complexity and challenge increases dramatically as you
advance across levels, and the number of experience points needed in
order to advance also increases sharply with each level."

Bullshit. The degree of complexity and challenges become same. Its
just become more time consuming,
because a usual quest, on say level 5 is to kill 10 monsters,
and on level 50 is to kill 100 or 200 monsters. This is an 'increase'
of challenge :)
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
Michael Forster
2010-03-15 12:50:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Igor Stasenko
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
the second is scary :)
WoW and alike is the most stupid games i ever seen. What is
frustrating that these games are not progressing over a years,
no! Instead i see the tendency how they becoming less and less
challenging to players.
Every new game i read about or taking a look - everything is the same,
just with more fancy graphics.
Raising a herd of 'creative' executives using WoW, would be a
stupidiest thing which i would do :)
Because its pool of creativity is very shallow and primitive.
"The degree of complexity and challenge increases dramatically as you
advance across levels, and the number of experience points needed in
order to advance also increases sharply with each level."
Bullshit. The degree of complexity and challenges become same. Its
just become more time consuming,
because a usual quest, on say level 5 is to kill 10 monsters,
and on level 50 is to kill 100 or 200 monsters. This is an 'increase'
of challenge :)
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
On a positive note, my daughters love to work with Scratch.


Mike
Chris Muller
2010-03-15 18:42:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Forster
On a positive note, my daughters love to work with Scratch.
That is positive, and the perfect segue into my criticism of the
article's claims about kids learning science from video games. While
I agree that WoW presents "personally meaningful" objectives to the
players, causing them to take an interest in the "science" defeating
the monsters, I do not think it engages the creative mind at the same
level the constructionism element present in Scratch and Etoys do..

- Chris

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