Discussion:
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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horrido
2014-12-27 05:03:31 UTC
Permalink
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and
Amber):

http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>

I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.

My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around
which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming
weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).

There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had
any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today
Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off
the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and
langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./

Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk,
not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing
criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software
engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't
think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.



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horrido
2014-12-27 05:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs,
etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be
overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.

Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose
the best ones to place on our Resources page:

http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>

Thanks.



--
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S Krish
2014-12-27 13:24:18 UTC
Permalink
What about joining up with Smalltalk Foundation , STIC and ESUG ..

Though laudable an initiative in whatever form you launch it. Just may
give it a better thrust if there is joining of hands. Smalltalk has not in
the past gained with multiple directions / efforts. Pull all efforts in as
much as possible single basket.

Thanks and best wishes in the endeavour.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials, blogs,
etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can be
overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and choose
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797114.html
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horrido
2014-12-27 14:00:25 UTC
Permalink
As I said, Smalltalk Renaissance is a rallying point for every fan of the
language. However, coordinating with disparate groups would diffuse my time
and energy. I believe it's better to have a fresh start that everybody can
participate in and contribute to. As curator and editor of Smalltalk
Renaissance, I can pick from the best and keep the campaign more focussed.
There is so much "stuff" in the Smalltalk landscape that it's overwhelming
and confusing to newcomers. *It made my head spin, which is what inspired me
to start this endeavour.* As I mentioned, I want to try something new and
different. Past efforts failed and they have a kind of "staleness" to them.
I want to jettison all unnecessary baggage.



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Sebastian Sastre
2014-12-27 17:57:01 UTC
Permalink
So the idea is to be a rallying point for every Smalltalk fan with a bias towards presenting a map to newcomers

What do you think that would make a good map?
Post by horrido
As I said, Smalltalk Renaissance is a rallying point for every fan of the
language. However, coordinating with disparate groups would diffuse my time
and energy. I believe it's better to have a fresh start that everybody can
participate in and contribute to. As curator and editor of Smalltalk
Renaissance, I can pick from the best and keep the campaign more focussed.
There is so much "stuff" in the Smalltalk landscape that it's overwhelming
and confusing to newcomers. *It made my head spin, which is what inspired me
to start this endeavour.* As I mentioned, I want to try something new and
different. Past efforts failed and they have a kind of "staleness" to them.
I want to jettison all unnecessary baggage.
--
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horrido
2014-12-31 23:06:15 UTC
Permalink
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
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Aaron Rosenzweig
2014-12-31 23:09:37 UTC
Permalink
“Streamlined Object Modeling” Nicola, Mayfield, Abney
http://www.amazon.com/Streamlined-Object-Modeling-Patterns-Implementation/dp/0130668397
AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike
Post by horrido
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
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Paul DeBruicker
2015-01-01 01:10:40 UTC
Permalink
everything by Andres was good to read:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Andres+Valloud&search-alias=books&text=Andres+Valloud&sort=relevancerank


And also
http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X
Post by horrido
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
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horrido
2015-01-01 04:43:50 UTC
Permalink
I guess there aren't many free or online resources that are worth
highlighting. (Make no mistake, there are lots of free online resources, but
most of them are probably not very notable.)



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Andreas Wacknitz
2015-01-01 08:12:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul DeBruicker
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Andres+Valloud&search-alias=books&text=Andres+Valloud&sort=relevancerank
+1 (I haven't read the last one but the first two are IMO eye-opener
while partly hard to understand for non-native speakers.)
Post by Paul DeBruicker
And also
http://www.amazon.com/Smalltalk-Best-Practice-Patterns-Kent/dp/013476904X
+1
Post by Paul DeBruicker
Post by horrido
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
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Paul DeBruicker
2015-01-13 17:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Can't believe I forgot about this one:

http://squeak.joyful.com/LanguageNotes

I used to use it all the time when learning the basics
Post by horrido
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
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p***@highoctane.be
2015-01-13 18:27:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul DeBruicker
http://squeak.joyful.com/LanguageNotes
I used to use it all the time when learning the basics
http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~philippeback/HOExtras/packages/HOCheatSheet

Phil
Post by Paul DeBruicker
Post by horrido
My Resources page is looking rather sparse. Doesn't anybody have any
favourite Smalltalk resources? Especially for "advanced" Smalltalkers.
Post by horrido
Do a search for Smalltalk resources, such as books, videos, tutorials,
blogs, etc., and you will face a virtual avalanche of material. This can
be overwhelming for Smalltalk newcomers to filter.
Submit your favourite Smalltalk resources and I shall curate them and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/resources/>
Thanks.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4799381.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Craig Latta
2014-12-27 09:08:19 UTC
Permalink
Hoi--

Who are you? Who is your audience?


thanks,

-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
horrido
2014-12-27 13:42:33 UTC
Permalink
My name is Richard Eng and I'm a retired software engineer. I've been in IT
for over 30 years. I've worked with FORTRAN, Tandem TAL,
C/C++/C#/Objective-C, Java, Python, and Smalltalk in a variety of different
problem domains ranging from real-time and telecommunications to database
and financial to video graphics. I was Project Team Leader of the NT Driver
Group at ATI Technologies (now AMD).

I'm also a burgeoning writer. You can see my portfolio here
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/latest> at Medium.com. Pay particular
attention to the articles on Go web frameworks, Beego tutorial, web2py,
programming languages, and the future of Dart which have garnered the most
readership.

I wrote an "advanced" tutorial for Go and Beego in order to help boost
Beego's profile: " A Word from The Beegoist
<https://medium.com/@richardeng/a-word-from-the-beegoist-d562ff8589d7> ". I
am currently working on a similar article to help boost Amber's profile.

My audience is anyone and everyone who is, or might be, interested in
Smalltalk. This includes decision makers from the enterprise and IT
journalists and software developers who are stuck in the Stone Age of
file-based, emacs-based programming.



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Hilaire
2014-12-27 11:42:18 UTC
Permalink
Nice initiative Mr or Mrs Horrido. The more we talk about Smalltalk in
several places the better.

Hilaire
Post by horrido
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around
which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming
weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had
any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today
Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off
the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and
langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk,
not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing
criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software
engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't
think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
--
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Dr. Geo - http://drgeo.eu
iStoa - http://istoa.drgeo.eu
Alexandre Bergel
2014-12-27 12:29:31 UTC
Permalink
Many languages I have never heard of are listed. What is missing to make Pharo listed here?
Any idea?

Cheers,
Alexandre
Post by horrido
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around
which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming
weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had
any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today
Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off
the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and
langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk,
not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing
criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software
engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't
think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
horrido
2014-12-27 13:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Pharo is mentioned prominently at Smalltalk Renaissance. However, I do not
want to give the impression that Smalltalk Renaissance is only about
"selling" one particular implementation to the public.



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Sebastian Sastre
2014-12-27 12:39:17 UTC
Permalink
And to inspire all, this talk from Bret Victor is addressing the humane aspect in a very effective way
http://vimeo.com/115154289

I have the impression that Smalltalk would score high in a humane medium of expression evaluation

... and if our UI/UX would be seriously improved lead by designers, not engineers, then Smalltalk could skyrocket its score in humane expression of computing.

LISP, and Clojure and Haskell are great but they will always have a high entry barrier due to taste acquisition of algebra as requisite. Smalltalk amazingly, eased that barrier while potentially allowing you the same computing power.

So what if?...

What if we partner with a design university that embraces this spirit (which is very friendly to them but they don't know)?

What I see is that if we do that, we might have a chance to achieve the best path that Bret proposes in his talk.

my 2 cents

from mobile
Post by horrido
I've launched a PR campaign to promote and advance the use of Smalltalk (and
http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/
<http://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/>
I am seeking the support of the Smalltalk community.
My intention is to make Smalltalk Renaissance /a rallying point/ around
which everyone can gather and contribute to this campaign. Over the coming
weeks and months, I shall outline my plan (which is still evolving).
There have been many prior attempts to popularize Smalltalk. None have had
any traction. Despite the best efforts of the Smalltalk community, today
Smalltalk has become a largely forgotten language. (Smalltalk has fallen off
the cliff at the TIOBE index, and it ranks poorly at Redmonk and
langpop.corger.nl.) /I am trying something different./
Smalltalk Renaissance is a PR campaign. It is trying to /market/ Smalltalk,
not on the exclusive basis of /technical merit/, but also by addressing
criticisms and generating excitement about the future of software
engineering. It is an ambitious campaign, but in this business, if you don't
think *big*, then don't bother wasting your time.
--
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horrido
2014-12-29 00:36:20 UTC
Permalink
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...

What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to
advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades
ago.

Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed
or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here
and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.

Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of
dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt
it.

Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?

Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of
Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new
language!*)

This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.



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Sebastian Sastre
2014-12-29 01:39:37 UTC
Permalink
Completely agree Richard.

In this talk Alan Kay address that point:

The Future Doesn't Have to Be Incremental
http://youtu.be/gTAghAJcO1o

Even if we have the visionaries, as in that talk is explained, you need funding to get them working on the vision.

I don’t know if our community has enough millionaires to make that happen, so far doesn’t look like it.

Or.. we didn’t explore that path well enough
Post by horrido
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to
advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades
ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed
or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here
and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of
dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt
it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of
Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new
language!*)
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
--
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S Krish
2014-12-29 06:24:28 UTC
Permalink
Inlined notes

I agree nothing earth shaking is happening in Smalltalk in just the 6
months, but over the last 4 yrs it is a quite a shift in Pharo. Hats off to
all active contributers.

I quite disagree... on the fact nothing is happening. While all
intellectually inclined love the idea of creating anew something ground
breaking, it is in current decade more important to ensure we create
relevant technology not just for the sake of claiming high ground.

Wolfram , Google, FB may be creating their islands of tech bubbles and that
may take the world too, but they have the billions I guess to afford.
Post by horrido
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to
advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades
ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed
or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here
and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of
dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt
it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Stephane Ducasse and team are visionaries in as much as Pharo is
shaking things up on Smalltalk world .
Lots of new things have already been charted out, of course the tough
grind of actually cleaning and providing a meaningful free Smalltalk
environment for the enterprise world is a gargantuan task and I see it as
being reached gradually in Pharo. That will itself be etched in history 10
yrs later as a great achievement.
Post by horrido
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of
Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new
language!*)
For four years I have seen the kind of energy/ enthusiasm unmatched
in the last decade or more in Pharo resurgence. Free Enterprise Smalltalk,
is about arriving in the IT industry.. just some honchos need to weave it
in.
Post by horrido
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
Much said and done in Pharo, there is nothing stopping any group in
creating something more powerful / relevant and leave the footprints in the
sands of time more firmly etched. I agree again there is lot of scope
provided that group does it..
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stepharo
2014-12-29 07:48:29 UTC
Permalink
Guys

you make me laugh.
We built pharo to reinvent smalltalk (Since day one) and many people
shout and cry because we do not want to say that this is a smalltalk and
because it is not compatible.

Now suddenly you show up (we pushed ESUG since 15 years BTW) telling us
that we should all aggregate under the renaissance program (without
really knowing what we are deeply doing) and now you criticize that
nobody on Smalltalk is doing innovation.

So let me tell you this:
- adhesion and trust is based on actions in open-source world (So
the ball is in your camp).
- if I would have got the money that alan got for his projects,
Pharo would not be like
it is now but way better. There is a pharo roadmap (you may find it
interesting) and we are steadily addressing it. We should write the new
version of the Pharo vision.
- Pharo is not Smalltalk and we are doing it our way. We want to
make sure that
people can get a living building applications with Pharo.
- We are not just creating a language. We are creating an ecosystem
with companies and universities.

Here my piece of advices:
- doing takes a lot more energy than talking, so think in terms of
milestones:
"what should I do if I do not get the energy to push it during years?"

- there are plenty of ways to help but you have to decide. What you
want to do.
-- reading books
-- writing tutorials
-- blogging (but I agree I always pay attention about what
I blog/twit)
-- develop libraries

Stef
Post by horrido
Bret Victor's talk is certainly interesting. This got me thinking...
What we need is a modern-day PARC with a /next generation/ of visionaries to
advance Smalltalk. They would carry on the work that was begun four decades
ago.
Here's the thing: The Smalltalk environment has not fundamentally changed
or improved since the Xerox PARC days. We've been tweaking the design here
and there, but nothing groundbreaking has happened.
Is the current Smalltalk environment the /final word/ on the nature of
dynamic programming and humane representation of thought? I seriously doubt
it.
Who are the visionaries that will shake things up? How do we find them?
Let's face it: We've all become rather complacent. (With the exception of
Newspeak, which frankly doesn't impress me much. *We don't need a new
language!*)
This is something Smalltalk Renaissance should think about.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797243.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
horrido
2014-12-29 19:40:56 UTC
Permalink
This post might be inappropriate. Click to display it.
Alexandre Bergel
2014-12-29 22:19:46 UTC
Permalink
There is something that I cannot understand: What is the goal of pushing Smalltalk that way? I am certainly not trying to do so.

In the way I see the World, Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. Actually, I would be tempted to say slightly inspired by Smalltalk as Pharo is taking a different path.

Having Smalltalk low on the ranking does not bother me much. Having Pharo listed would be great although.

Cheers,
Alexandre
Post by horrido
KIRK: Then what is it?
GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before
your race was born, I have awaited a question.
KIRK: What are you?
GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.
KIRK: Are you machine or being?
GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable.
Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is
a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where
Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100
list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl,
Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about
in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost
never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe
I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not
enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are
/technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need
to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell
Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other
words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather
staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change
this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the
language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep
the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am
not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance,
although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You
can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community
to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay
topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the
future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with
it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose
the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee
you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the
concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling
arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so
on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press,
such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your
contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship.
If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much
mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant
following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's
highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name
backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to
succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of
inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer
term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk
technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk
environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing
file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with
existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a
source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be
financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot.
And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some
degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the
Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane
Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm
only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter.
(Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a
work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can
tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has
been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe
you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future.
For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more
attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
stepharo
2014-12-30 13:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexandre Bergel
There is something that I cannot understand: What is the goal of pushing Smalltalk that way? I am certainly not trying to do so.
In the way I see the World, Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. Actually, I would be tempted to say slightly inspired by Smalltalk as Pharo is taking a different path.
Having Smalltalk low on the ranking does not bother me much. Having Pharo listed would be great although.
Yes!!!

This is long ago that I decided to stop to fight against the "new is
cool" trends.

Stef
stepharo
2014-12-29 22:20:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
KIRK: Then what is it?
GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before
your race was born, I have awaited a question.
KIRK: What are you?
GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.
KIRK: Are you machine or being?
GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable.
Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is
a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where
Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100
list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl,
Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
So Smalltalk is dead and Pharo alive and kicking. No?
Post by horrido
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about
in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost
never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe
I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not
enough on PR and marketing.
On making money too.
Post by horrido
Understandable, since engineers are
/technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need
to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell
Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other
words, we need to build /hype/.
We market Pharo as a new language because Pharo is cool and we do not
have to
carry with us the "old" aspects and fight against the museum syndrom.
You can give a try
we would prefer to market Pharo as Pharo.
Post by horrido
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather
staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change
this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
Post by horrido
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the
language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep
the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am
not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance,
although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You
can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community
to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay
topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the
future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with
it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose
the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee
you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the
concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling
arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so
on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press,
such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your
contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship.
If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much
mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant
following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's
highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name
backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to
succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of
inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer
term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk
technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk
environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing
file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with
existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a
source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be
financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot.
And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some
degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the
Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane
Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm
only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter.
(Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a
work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can
tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has
been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe
you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
No but roma has not been done in a week.
Post by horrido
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future.
For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more
attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
horrido
2014-12-30 01:04:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by stepharo
Post by horrido
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not
enough on PR and marketing.
On making money too.
You're saying Smalltalk organizations are too focussed on making money? I've
heard that, too. It sounds very odd to me. I thought these organizations
were created for the love of the language. Am I too naive?
Post by stepharo
We market Pharo as a new language because Pharo is cool and we do not have
to carry with us the "old" aspects and fight against the museum syndrome.
Then you have failed. Virtually every mention of Pharo on the web is
directly linked to Smalltalk. In the public consciousness, there is little
or no distinction between Pharo and Smalltalk. Trying to force this
distinction, I believe, is a mistake; it's futile.

If Pharo is a new language disconnected from Smalltalk, then it loses
whatever cachet Smalltalk has. Smalltalk already has a ton of references on
the web; it just needs to be cleaned up a bit. Hence, Smalltalk Renaissance.

Moreover, we can fight the museum syndrome through branding and education.
Smalltalk is already a positive marque; it's renown for its influence in
language design, for example.

Pharo has to start from scratch in building its brand. It's more
challenging. So far, it has ridden on Smalltalk's coattails. Continuing on
this path is the smarter move.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible. We set
up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly nobody
teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
Smalltalk Renaissance is also about the community, as I've already
explained.

Yes, getting Smalltalk into US (and Canadian) schools is vitally important.
I haven't yet determined SRP's role in this regard.




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horrido
2014-12-30 12:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alexandre Bergel
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"...

I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax
that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just
another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this.

One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure
simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got
absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.*

If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the
tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you
can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.

From "Alien":

ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect
organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
LAMBERT: You admire it.
ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or
delusions of morality.

Generalissimo



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Marcus Denker
2014-12-30 12:33:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Post by Alexandre Bergel
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"...
I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax
that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just
another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this.
One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure
simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got
absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.*
If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the
tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you
can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
Post by horrido
ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect
organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
LAMBERT: You admire it.
ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or
delusions of morality.
\
I would advise you to not waste everyones time.

Please start DOING, stop TALKING. Keep in mind that you have until now
not done *anything at all*, yet you know exactly what everyone else
is supposed to be doing.

Marcus
horrido
2014-12-30 13:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Such hostility!

If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.

I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall
be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??).
I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about
ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the
Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the
classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this
campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've
clearly outlined in a previous post.

I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else"
is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've
already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different
approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and
branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
front?



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Marcus Denker
2014-12-30 13:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
Post by horrido
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly
Honestly:

https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais <https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais>

Tweets: 7
Followers: 8
Following: 0

You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.

Marcus
p***@highoctane.be
2014-12-30 13:53:43 UTC
Permalink
Relax people.

Remember the stages of team formation:

- forming
- storming (we are here)
- norming
- performing

So, this is good.

What is the problem with what Robert is doing?

Let's use Renaissance as the French Renaissance.

We need more PR. Not for cool or new. But as backing up our ass when the C
level guys need reassurance.

I have my little side project that will go out in Q1 on that front.

Phil
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7
Followers: 8
Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Marcus
stepharo
2014-12-30 14:05:34 UTC
Permalink
+ 1000
Just add a filter if you get annoyed :)
Post by p***@highoctane.be
Relax people.
- forming
- storming (we are here)
- norming
- performing
So, this is good.
What is the problem with what Robert is doing?
Let's use Renaissance as the French Renaissance.
We need more PR. Not for cool or new. But as backing up our ass when
the C level guys need reassurance.
I have my little side project that will go out in Q1 on that front.
Phil
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
Post by horrido
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and
contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7
Followers: 8
Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Marcus
horrido
2014-12-30 14:13:04 UTC
Permalink
I'm Richard. You're thinking of my brother Robert.



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p***@highoctane.be
2014-12-30 14:36:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
I'm Richard. You're thinking of my brother Robert.
Yes. My bad ;-)

Phil
Post by horrido
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Post by horrido
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Marcus Denker
2014-12-30 13:53:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Denker
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
I am sure you get that often, or not?
Post by horrido
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly
https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais
Tweets: 7
Followers: 8
Following: 0
You are definitely seeing a different reality than me.
Just to compare the scale:

Tweets: 3266
Followers: 1077

or google plus… of course it needs a genius like you do set up a google plus account:

http://google.com/+Pharo-projectOrg

Marcus
horrido
2014-12-30 17:47:25 UTC
Permalink
BTW, you missed another key point:

My Google+ page (and my Facebook page) is *part of a branding effort* for
Smalltalk, and Smalltalk Renaissance. Thus, the Pharo Project Google+ page
is of little value to me.

I'm truly astonished that you didn't understand that.
On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Marcus Denker &lt;
&gt; wrote:of course it needs a genius like you do set up a google plus
http://google.com/+Pharo-projectOrg
Marcus
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horrido
2014-12-30 14:09:54 UTC
Permalink
My Twitter account is less than 3 days old. How many tweets do you expect in
that time period?

And I struggle to find things to tweet about. I'm not accustomed to this.
Maybe you can cut me just a wee bit of slack?



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Norbert Hartl
2014-12-30 14:23:32 UTC
Permalink
Richard, we appreciate your ideas and engagement on the topic. Marketing measures are surely welcomed and we are eager to see what you are going to achieve. I think nobody knows what is it that makes something successful. It is a ghost a lot of people are trying to hunt down. But I think it is hard to be really sure about it.
On the other hand we are a community for several years now and we talk about those things regularly. We decide how we proceed and a few weeks another person chimes in wanting to discus it again.
Your mails had that tone (maybe that was not intended) that you know what to do and we should follow that or at least focus on it. Reread that and take two first paragraphs into account. This sounds strange for a community. Asking for twitter accounts and all sorts of resources appears to me that you didn't do your homework well. That surely doesn't work.

But now I think the best thing is to let this thread rest a day or two to have tensions cool down. After that the discussion might be different.

Norbert
Post by horrido
My Twitter account is less than 3 days old. How many tweets do you expect in
that time period?
And I struggle to find things to tweet about. I'm not accustomed to this.
Maybe you can cut me just a wee bit of slack?
Ben Coman
2014-12-30 14:08:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
This has been gone over before and it can be a sensitive issue and draining
for busy people with a vision of what they want to achieve with Pharo -
hence the terse response. There is some enlightening research you could do
in the archives on this topic. (sorry too hard to find through this
vacation interface)

Now often I post a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask smart questions"
but this interface is difficult, could you google it.
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
Post by horrido
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall
be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??).
I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about
ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the
Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the
classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this
campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've
clearly outlined in a previous post.
This is great to hear of these positive actions.
Post by horrido
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else"
is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've
already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different
approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and
branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
Everyone contributes in their own way. It will be good to add more PR, but
this needs to be lead by those technical-doers who have spent the last five
years creating their vision for Pharo. (myself I am a newcomer also)



-Ben
kilon alios
2014-12-30 14:25:57 UTC
Permalink
I think newcomers like us can play a pivot role too. As a newcomer I made
Pharo manipulate Blender by hijacking python, I thought that most likely I
would fail because I dont know Pharo well and I never tried to create a
parser or communicate via sockets but I was succesful and uploaded several
videos that I am sure raised some eyebrows. Now imagine 1 million pharo
newcomers do this and having 1 million youtube videos that would lead to
raising 1 million eyebrows :D

I agree that the best people for the job are experienced pharo developers
but they can only do so much with their limited free time. We all need to
help on this.

Plus I have been following your progress with pharo and you have done some
pretty cool contributions to pharo ;)
Post by Ben Coman
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
This has been gone over before and it can be a sensitive issue and
draining for busy people with a vision of what they want to achieve with
Pharo - hence the terse response. There is some enlightening research you
could do in the archives on this topic. (sorry too hard to find through
this vacation interface)
Now often I post a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask smart questions"
but this interface is difficult, could you google it.
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
Post by horrido
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall
be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??).
I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about
ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the
Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the
classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this
campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've
clearly outlined in a previous post.
This is great to hear of these positive actions.
Post by horrido
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else"
is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've
already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different
approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and
branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
Everyone contributes in their own way. It will be good to add more PR,
but this needs to be lead by those technical-doers who have spent the last
five years creating their vision for Pharo. (myself I am a newcomer also)
-Ben
Benoit St-Jean
2014-12-30 14:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
+1000
No need for that, we should ALL be ONE family.
Some people should *seriously* get a second cup of coffee in the morning before they hit *Send* or even write a single line of comment.
Calm down people!
 -----------------Benoit St-JeanYahoo!
Messenger: bstjeanTwitter: @BenLeChialeuxPinterest: benoitstjeanIRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
Andreas Wacknitz
2014-12-30 14:36:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Such hostility!
I don't consider the reactions as being hostile. For me it's more like
being impatient.
And I can understand this because when somebody spent a lot of time and
energy during the last years,
it's not nice being told that was mostly wrong and somethine else is
needed more.

I visited your site. What alienated my immediately was the (in my eyes)
bad restriction on "Web Development".
I am not interested in web development. I don't intent to start a new
Google, Facebook, Yahoo or a web shop and
thus I don't care about web development.

Regards
Andreas
Post by horrido
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my
own way.
I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook
page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting
constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall
be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??).
I'm actively /trying to sign up supporters for the SRP/, and I am about
ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the
Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the
classroom (/I have a contact/). I have spent countless hours working on this
campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've
clearly outlined in a previous post.
I'm not sure what it is you think I should be *doing*. What "everyone else"
is doing *is on the technical front*, working on tools and code. As I've
already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different
approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and
branding. Let me turn the question around: What are *you* doing on the PR
front?
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horrido
2014-12-30 15:09:10 UTC
Permalink
The emphasis on web development is a "hook" to draw in the public. The fact
is, whether you choose to believe it or not, the web is the single most
important technological achievement of the past two decades. It's on
everybody's mind. They identify with it.

The website does not suggest that Smalltalk is only good for web
development. Of course, you can use it for anything else.

I confess I'm coloured by my experience. I worked with Seaside and I'm now
working with Amber. I love web technologies. (At Medium.com, you can see
this in my articles on web2py, Go frameworks, JavaScript and Dart.)

If you're really interested in boosting other problem domains at Smalltalk
Renaissance, you are certainly most welcome to do so by submitting essays.
Or posting to Facebook.

Remember, SRP does not succeed with *you*.



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horrido
2014-12-30 15:11:02 UTC
Permalink
Erm, I mean, SRP does not succeed without *you*.



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p***@highoctane.be
2014-12-30 12:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Post by Alexandre Bergel
Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk.
On Pharo being a "new language"...
I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax
that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just
another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this.
One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure
simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got
absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.*
If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the
tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you
can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things.
ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect
organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility.
LAMBERT: You admire it.
ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or
delusions of morality.
Generalissimo
Some features:

- Slots
- Opal compiler
- Enhanced collections
- Removal of a lot of old craft
- Nativeboost
- TxText
- GToolkit
- Better infrastructure
- Command line handlers
- JSON support

One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it
different and powerful.

I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the
development experience.

Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the UI. Not many
contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it matters to me. I hate
black magic happening. With Pharo I can make sense of things.

I do feel empowered when using Pharo.
Not so with other languages and tools where I feel like a user not a
(co)-owner.

There is this irrational inner joy associated with elegance. I feel it. I
like it. It is what makes me choose it over more mainstream tech. We 'll
see how far this will lead me and my business.

Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is only so much
time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be it.

Phil
Post by horrido
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horrido
2014-12-30 13:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.

Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a
mistake.



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p***@highoctane.be
2014-12-30 13:28:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a
mistake.
This has been discussed ad lubitum in the past.

Now, as "Pharo is yours", one can do as he pleases.

That is also why open source is great.
Post by horrido
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kilon alios
2014-12-30 13:53:48 UTC
Permalink
It does not matter how one calls Pharo, the only people who care are
smalltalk developers and they are not that many out there anyway.

Pharo tries to attract all developers but in order to do that in order for
it become more popular it has to play the rules and the rules are simple,
active support, libraries and documentation. Take a look at your TIOBE
INDEX you think that any of those top 10 , top 50 or top 100 languages got
up there out of accident, or maybe out of good PR , because people tweet
about them ? Hell no !

Java , Javascript and C++ are some of the most hated languages out there.
Python and Ruby some of the most loved . The only common thing these
language have is their huge libraries , massive support and documentation
projects . This is the real competition to Pharo becoming more popular.

Pharo has been progressing very well, not because people tweet about it but
because it has more tools, better libraries and active effort to expand and
organise documentation. It has people who do the hard work. Sure tweeting
gives it more exposure but in the end nobody is going buy the PR hype , we
all know PR is bullshit if you dont have a quality product to sell.

How Pharo will compete with Python if it cant offer a similar amount of
what Python offers if not more like all the other Python competitors ?

Pharo does not need a marketing team, it needs more contributors . So does
every other language that needs to expand.
Post by horrido
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a
mistake.
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horrido
2014-12-30 14:37:09 UTC
Permalink
Many of the top languages got there by fortuitous happenstance. JavaScript
was esp. lucky in being embedded in every browser on the planet. Java had
corporate sponsorship. C++ had a lot of history.

Yes, grassroots helped the likes of Python and Ruby, but I contend those
days are over. Mozilla, for example, needs grassroots to help Rust, but I
don't see Rust succeeding. Today, it's not enough to have good
libraries/tools, documentation, and word of mouth.

Pharo is not alone. I see LOTS of other languages trying to do the same
thing. Most of them will remain in relative obscurity. I bet my life on it.

You need more contributors? How are you going to get them? It comes down to
the same thing. Marketing and mindshare.

PR is bullshit. But it's also a door that opens for Pharo to get its message
out. Where would iPhone be without PR bullshit?

Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it?

Frankly, I'm happy to move on to other things in my life.



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horrido
2014-12-30 14:57:11 UTC
Permalink
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several
of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy.
I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure.

So I rely on /you/ to set me straight. I remind you that I'm just the
coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that much
time to do what I'm doing.

Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the
point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign.
It's part of a whole.

Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and I have
a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan,
or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I
shan't waste any more time (yours or mind).



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Ben Coman
2014-12-30 15:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several
of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy.
I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure.
So I rely on /you/ to set me straight.
In process :)
Post by horrido
I remind you that I'm just the
coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that much
time to do what I'm doing.
Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the
point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign.
It's part of a whole.
Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and I have
a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan,
or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I
shan't waste any more time (yours or mind).
It's not just a matter of time, but inclination. If you are inclined to
Post by horrido
do this, then it should be supported - but it's a matter of getting the
PR message aligned with the technical vision. We don't want the market
being told one thing then getting a different message here in-list. So
you made a misstep here. That's okay, you learn more that way than doing
nothing. It may take some more back-n-forth. I hope you continue.
-Ben
horrido
2014-12-30 15:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Thank you very much. So please explain how the PR message is not aligned with
the technical vision. I don't see any inconsistency.
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido &lt;
&gt; &lt;javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','
Post by horrido
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several
of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy.
I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure.
So I rely on /you/ to set me straight.
In process :)
Post by horrido
I remind you that I'm just the
coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that much
time to do what I'm doing.
Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the
point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign.
It's part of a whole.
Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and I have
a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan,
or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I
shan't waste any more time (yours or mind).
It's not just a matter of time, but inclination. If you are inclined to
Post by horrido
do this, then it should be supported - but it's a matter of getting the
PR message aligned with the technical vision. We don't want the market
being told one thing then getting a different message here in-list. So
you made a misstep here. That's okay, you learn more that way than doing
nothing. It may take some more back-n-forth. I hope you continue.
-Ben
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Ben Coman
2015-01-01 07:45:46 UTC
Permalink
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
Now I wonder if a history of evolving features from Smalltalk-72 "in the
context of Pharo" being another step of evolution would be a useful
addition to the Pharo story.
Cheers -Ben
Post by horrido
Thank you very much. So please explain how the PR message is not aligned with
the technical vision. I don't see any inconsistency.
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido &lt;
&gt; &lt;javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','
Post by horrido
And, yes, I did not do my most thorough homework regarding Pharo, as several
of you have pointed out. Frankly, I don't have /that/ much time and energy.
I'm old and retired. I'm just doing this for pleasure.
So I rely on /you/ to set me straight.
In process :)
Post by horrido
I remind you that I'm just the
coordinator of the campaign, because I'm sure none of you have that
much
Post by horrido
time to do what I'm doing.
Marcus suggested that anyone can create a Google+ page, but he misses the
point. The Google+ page is just one brick in the foundation of the campaign.
It's part of a whole.
Norbert suggests that I think I know what to do. No, I have ideas and
I
Post by horrido
have
a plan. There's no guarantee that it will work. Either you buy into my plan,
or you don't. Either I have your support, or I don't. If the latter, I
shan't waste any more time (yours or mind).
It's not just a matter of time, but inclination. If you are inclined
to
Post by horrido
do this, then it should be supported - but it's a matter of getting
the
Post by horrido
PR message aligned with the technical vision. We don't want the
market
Post by horrido
being told one thing then getting a different message here in-list.
So
Post by horrido
you made a misstep here. That's okay, you learn more that way than
doing
Post by horrido
nothing. It may take some more back-n-forth. I hope you continue.
-Ben
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horrido
2015-01-01 23:26:59 UTC
Permalink
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.

Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
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Aaron Rosenzweig
2015-01-01 23:56:34 UTC
Permalink
For a long time, the term GNU didn’t mean much to me. I knew it was “the free software foundation” and was related to “CopyLeft” which is a bit tongue-in-cheek… meaning that free software should always be free and open source… the opposite of a “CopyRight”

One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.

The “G” stands for “GNU” so it is recursive as in:
GNUNUNUNUNUNUNU….

So what about the “NU” part? that stands for “Not Unix”

So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software foundation is “Not UNIX” !!!

I was shocked at first… because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The GCC compiler, everything… But what they really mean is that when they started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the foundation for Linux which technically isn’t Unix but is “Unix-Like” - and very similar to SVR4 Unix.

“Smalltalk” is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of an index card. It’s “small” get it? But it also collides with “picking up chicks” and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad but… “Pharo” does sound cooler.

You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace “Smalltalk.” They don’t want to. They don’t deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.

Maybe instead of “Smalltalk Renaissance” you coin “PNS” - “Pharo Not Smalltalk” or… make the P stand for “PNS” so it is recursive.
PNSNSNSNSNS….

Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNS…. doh!

In my mind… for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to happen:

1) A consulting company needs to “kick butt” and “take names” using this technology

2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run around the country giving appearances and presentations.

That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a “Smalltalk without an image.” So it’s not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature of Smalltalk is lost on the world… that is primarily what Rails developers relate with.

With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that “did stuff” and cut out Java developers from projects.

With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic figure at any programming conference he attends.

It’s cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success.
AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike
Post by horrido
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
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Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ben Coman
2015-01-02 02:08:04 UTC
Permalink
For a long time, the term GNU didn’t mean much to me. I knew it was “the
free software foundation” and was related to “CopyLeft” which is a bit
tongue-in-cheek
 meaning that free software should always be free and open
source
 the opposite of a “CopyRight”
One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
GNUNUNUNUNUNUNU
.
So what about the “NU” part? that stands for “Not Unix”
So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software
foundation is “Not UNIX” !!!
Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)
I was shocked at first
 because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The
GCC compiler, everything
 But what they really mean is that when they
started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for
hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the
foundation for Linux which technically isn’t Unix but is “Unix-Like” - and
very similar to SVR4 Unix.
“Smalltalk” is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of
an index card. It’s “small” get it? But it also collides with “picking up
chicks” and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad
but
 “Pharo” does sound cooler.
You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace
“Smalltalk.” They don’t want to.
Thats a bit strong for me :). But the next is certainly true.
They don’t deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
Maybe instead of “Smalltalk Renaissance” you coin “PNS” - “Pharo Not
Smalltalk” or
 make the P stand for “PNS” so it is recursive.
PNSNSNSNSNS
.
I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note
your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here). His stated
scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child. Now
"The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based
in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that
interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's
goals.

Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all
the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it
significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk. I expect in
practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.
Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNS
. doh!
In my mind
 for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to
1) A consulting company needs to “kick butt” and “take names” using this
technology
2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run
around the country giving appearances and presentations.
That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a “Smalltalk
without an image.” So it’s not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature
of Smalltalk is lost on the world
 that is primarily what Rails developers
relate with.
With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that “did
stuff” and cut out Java developers from projects.
With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic
figure at any programming conference he attends.
It’s cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success.
*Aaron Rosenzweig* / Chat 'n Bike <http://www.chatnbike.com>
Chat 'n Bike]
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
horrido
2015-01-02 03:17:19 UTC
Permalink
It's incomprehensible to me that anyone would say Smalltalk shouldn't evolve
and improve. Smalltalk isn't perfect; nothing is. Smalltalk isn't the final
word on software engineering. Of course it should evolve. And I like the
direction that Pharo is taking it.

Even the language aspect (syntax) could evolve, if only slightly. Perhaps we
can make a *small* concession to concurrency, for example. Nearly every
recent modern language has strong concurrency features to support multi-core
processors.
On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig &lt;
&gt;
For a long time, the term GNU didn’t mean much to me. I knew it was “the
free software foundation” and was related to “CopyLeft” which is a bit
tongue-in-cheek… meaning that free software should always be free and
open
source… the opposite of a “CopyRight”
One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
GNUNUNUNUNUNUNU….
So what about the “NU” part? that stands for “Not Unix”
So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software
foundation is “Not UNIX” !!!
Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)
I was shocked at first… because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The
GCC compiler, everything… But what they really mean is that when they
started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for
hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the
foundation for Linux which technically isn’t Unix but is “Unix-Like” -
and
very similar to SVR4 Unix.
“Smalltalk” is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of
an index card. It’s “small” get it? But it also collides with “picking up
chicks” and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too
bad
but… “Pharo” does sound cooler.
You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace
“Smalltalk.” They don’t want to.
Thats a bit strong for me :). But the next is certainly true.
They don’t deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
Maybe instead of “Smalltalk Renaissance” you coin “PNS” - “Pharo Not
Smalltalk” or… make the P stand for “PNS” so it is recursive.
PNSNSNSNSNS….
I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note
your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here). His stated
scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child.
Now
"The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based
in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that
interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's
goals.
Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all
the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it
significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk. I expect in
practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.
Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNS…. doh!
In my mind… for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to
1) A consulting company needs to “kick butt” and “take names” using this
technology
2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run
around the country giving appearances and presentations.
That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a “Smalltalk
without an image.” So it’s not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature
of Smalltalk is lost on the world… that is primarily what Rails
developers
relate with.
With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that “did
stuff” and cut out Java developers from projects.
With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic
figure at any programming conference he attends.
It’s cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success.
*e:*
Chat 'n Bike]
On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido &lt;
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797590.html
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Ben Coman
2015-01-02 01:31:24 UTC
Permalink
Sorry I wasn't clear. I didn't mean this part... "most people think
Smalltalk is dead and a relic of the past and we want to avoid that
negative connotation"

I meant this... "because the next thing always is 'No, don't do that, you
can't change anything'. Pharo was started precisely because we want the
freedom to change things where necessary (on all levels, VM, language,
compiler, runtime, libraries, concepts, tools, ..)".


Now to directly address you points

* additional new features
It is 30 years since Smalltalk-80 was released. Has there been so little
advancement in non-Smalltalk fields that there is nothing to learn or
improve? What about the the next 30 years? Now actually, features already
differ between members of the Smalltalk family. [1]

* syntax that extend Smalltalk
I haven't seen much movement towards changing syntax.

* desirable quality of Smalltalk /language/ is its pure simplicity.
You are right. We need to take care here. But we want to avoid someone
coming along saying "you can't do that! that's not Smalltalk!"
For example... "Whether Squeak should comply with ANSI Smalltalk is a
common flame war.[2]"

* Pharo /environment/ (including the tooling and class libraries) will
evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new
language."
Actually I don't see anyone running around saying "we've made a new
language." What I've seen is that its more about the environment. But the
separation between language & environment is a grey area for Smalltalk (the
language is so minimal). Saying "Pharo is not Smalltalk" is a pragmatic
approach to dealing with [2]. Saying it first helps avoid compliance-based
arguments later if anyone is surprised that something changes. But I
think its fair to consider Pharo in the Smalltalk family. You might
consider similarities with "GNU's Not Unix".

cheers -ben

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6368337/whats-the-difference-of-ansi-smalltalk-and-smalltalk-80
[2] http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/172
Post by horrido
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-02 03:33:08 UTC
Permalink
Richard, some people choose to face it and some to evade it. It’s okay.

I actually see as healthy that people try bold strategies aligned with the missions they embrace.

And I also see that is okay the community as a whole tries many strategies because concentrating is too risky and eventually from quantity comes quality.

Nature loves to try everything and select what works best selecting in retrospective.

The things that end up providing good results will have appreciation and replication in the next generation and the things that results so-so would be part of the story because even if reality wanted to go other direction, that people followed their mission and made their contribution.

So time will tell.

Recently I’ve answered in Quora this question What is the most influential software product or programming language that was ever created? <https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-influential-software-product-or-programming-language-that-was-ever-created/answer/Sebastian-Sastre?__snids__=868638797&__nsrc__=1&__filter__=all> and I cited the interview to Steve Jobs where he is telling the story of how he was inspired by seeing Smalltalk demoed in the Alto. After that, he knew how to create the right UX in the MacIntosh.

That story is so crucial and inspiring that Malcom Gladwell <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell> wrote in the New Yorker about it <http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/creation-myth>. Painfully enough for us, not mentioning Smalltalk in his writing which was the artifact at the epicenter of that inspiration (I really wonder why it wasn’t mentioned, is really weird). But even if it wasn’t mentioned, it doesn’t matter, not even Gladwell can re-write history and Smalltalk had and has a protagonist role in it.

Given that Smalltalk has actually inspired Steve at that moment in time and the consequences in our culture, the impact is so massive that I am surprised that anyone would not to chose to embrace it with arms, legs and teeth.

But, as said, that’s okay. The Multiverse has space for everybody. Possibilities are more abundant than ever.

I think that everybody’s contribution is valuable, the Pharo community in particular, and that we are very lucky in having you wanting to do some PR for Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular.

Lastly, I don’t see Smalltalk as the ultimate language but for me is the one that is less far away from it.

Until that utopian language of the future gets real, you’ll probably found me stuck to Smalltalk :)
Post by horrido
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
horrido
2015-01-02 04:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.

There is no such thing as perfection, but no other language could come
closer than Smalltalk. Well, maybe Scheme, but I always have trouble
grokking this language.

I'm amused by the vast number of new languages that have popped up over the
past decade or so. Every one of them purports to be easy to use and highly
productive...once you get passed the learning curve, that is. To me, all of
these languages are simply repackaging language features in different
combinations and interpretations in pursuit of the mythical benefits of
productivity and efficiency. They are basically chasing after their own
tail.

The common metric they all seek is "expressiveness". They think the ultimate
in expressiveness may come from functional programming, or some weird
algebraic syntax, or whatever else they dream up. What a colossal waste of
effort.

Meanwhile, the solution has been in front of them for four decades. Go
figure.
Richard, some people choose to face it and some to evade it. It’s okay.
I actually see as healthy that people try bold strategies aligned with the
missions they embrace.
And I also see that is okay the community as a whole tries many strategies
because concentrating is too risky and eventually from quantity comes
quality.
Nature loves to try everything and select what works best selecting in retrospective.
The things that end up providing good results will have appreciation and
replication in the next generation and the things that results so-so would
be part of the story because even if reality wanted to go other direction,
that people followed their mission and made their contribution.
So time will tell.
Recently I’ve answered in Quora this question What is the most influential
software product or programming language that was ever created?
and I cited the interview to Steve Jobs where he is telling the story of
how he was inspired by seeing Smalltalk demoed in the Alto. After that, he
knew how to create the right UX in the MacIntosh.
That story is so crucial and inspiring that Malcom Gladwell
Yorker about it
Painfully enough for us, not mentioning Smalltalk in his writing which was
the artifact at the epicenter of that inspiration (I really wonder why it
wasn’t mentioned, is really weird). But even if it wasn’t mentioned, it
doesn’t matter, not even Gladwell can re-write history and Smalltalk had
and has a protagonist role in it.
Given that Smalltalk has actually inspired Steve at that moment in time
and the consequences in our culture, the impact is so massive that I am
surprised that anyone would not to chose to embrace it with arms, legs and
teeth.
But, as said, that’s okay. The Multiverse has space for everybody.
Possibilities are more abundant than ever.
I think that everybody’s contribution is valuable, the Pharo community in
particular, and that we are very lucky in having you wanting to do some PR
for Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular.
Lastly, I don’t see Smalltalk as the ultimate language but for me is the
one that is less far away from it.
Until that utopian language of the future gets real, you’ll probably found
me stuck to Smalltalk :)
On Jan 1, 2015, at 9:26 PM, horrido &lt;
I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797595.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
S Krish
2015-01-02 06:18:03 UTC
Permalink
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..*

Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are
essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed
in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should
not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.

a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing
usage of the technology but not essential.

b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform
not a langauge ), it is question of :

Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its* usable frameworks:*

* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise
programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour
toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in
mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the
mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable,
flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.

* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr
work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity
to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his
inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more
around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application
framework deployable in 3 hrs.

*Pharo Platform:*

* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals
of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security
specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to
allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers
will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both
"winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to
lead those frameworks.

* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain
commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the
packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.

* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target
enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy
integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an
incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its
platform progressing together.

*PR:*

* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can
only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not
be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I
believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/
sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.

* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each
enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the
seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end
with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly
customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should
exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up
quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most
important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ,
DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the
developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but
they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground




Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am
greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a
personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens
before the year runs out.
Post by horrido
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-02 17:21:43 UTC
Permalink
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
This is the kind of thing I’m working on here <https://github.com/flow-stack/flow> which uses Amber at the frontend and Pharo at the backend.

I would be very interested in hearing your review.

I’m currently working in making installation easier to lower the initial friction.

Also, if you have ideas on what is needed to get to that 1 to 3h prototype goal, you are welcome to share your thoughts in the input/feedback column of this trello board:

https://trello.com/b/oQ17lPpV/flow <https://trello.com/b/oQ17lPpV/flow>
Krishsmalltalk
2015-01-03 02:07:47 UTC
Permalink
From a wide survey done for Openstack:

"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In. Ability to innovate is ranked first"

This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.



Sudhakar krishnamachari
Post by S Krish
Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.
stepharo
2015-01-03 08:54:25 UTC
Permalink
Interesting.
Now as I always say: do and build trust.
Our plates are full but there are plenty to empty plates around.

Stef
Post by Krishsmalltalk
"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were
*Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding
Vendor Lock-In.* Ability to innovate is ranked first"
This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.
Sudhakar krishnamachari
On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:48 AM, S Krish
Post by S Krish
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..*
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though
are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me
is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its
core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of
increasing usage of the technology but not essential.
b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a
Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its*usable
frameworks:*
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for
enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside,
Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi
custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo
weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als.
Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in
its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a
1-3 hr work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its
complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough
to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot,
Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto
creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.
*Pharo Platform:*
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across
fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als
), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince
the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will
exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make
the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the
frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain
commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of
the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily
updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target
enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy
integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is
an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem
of its platform progressing together.
*PR:*
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this
can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit
but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product.
Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many
intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more
and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each
enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But
what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web
app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated
in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require.
Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3
instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a
workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as
much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et
als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The
kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need
to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am
greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a
personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens
before the year runs out.
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.
p***@highoctane.be
2015-01-03 09:48:02 UTC
Permalink
the "reformation of software engineering" is a bit loaded.

see http://semat.org

As a funny thing, they also have Essence.

phil
Post by stepharo
Interesting.
Now as I always say: do and build trust.
Our plates are full but there are plenty to empty plates around.
Stef
"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were *Ability
to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In.*
Ability to innovate is ranked first"
This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.
Sudhakar krishnamachari
*Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..*
Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are
essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed
in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should
not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.
a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing
usage of the technology but not essential.
b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform
Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its* usable
frameworks:*
* Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise
programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour
toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in
mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the
mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable,
flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.
* Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a 1-3 hr
work with documentation given. Rails promised that hiding its complexity
to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his
inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more
around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application
framework deployable in 3 hrs.
*Pharo Platform:*
* The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across
fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ),
security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the
CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and
programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as
both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need
visionaries to lead those frameworks.
* Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain
commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the
packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.
* The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target
enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy
integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an
incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its
platform progressing together.
*PR:*
* Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can
only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not
be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I
believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/
sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.
* I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each
enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the
seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end
with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly
customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should
exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up
quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most
important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ,
DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the
developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but
they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground
Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am
greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a
personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens
before the year runs out.
Post by horrido
Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.
horrido
2015-01-03 14:18:53 UTC
Permalink
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
*every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
penny.

Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
wife!

Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
/Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.

This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.

The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Andreas Wacknitz
2015-01-03 14:37:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
*every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
/Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
--
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What do you want to tell us?
horrido
2015-01-03 14:50:26 UTC
Permalink
This is informational, to tell you something about the Smalltalk Foundation,
to tell you why there hasn't been a PR campaign before. The takeaway should
be that the SRP should not be taken lightly; it is very, very important.
Unless you think the promotion of Smalltalk is not worthy of such efforts.
(Believe it or not, there are actually people in the Smalltalk community who
think this.)



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p***@highoctane.be
2015-01-03 18:13:11 UTC
Permalink
You
Post by horrido
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
*every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
/Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
Ah ah. How wrong.

I 'd just say that ruffling feathers of people will not help the cause.

On the marketing side, people aren't buying technology. They are buying its
benefits. As in "no need for a drill, what I want is getting the picture
frame on the wall".

As such Pharo/Smalltalk or whatever has no specific benefit. What is the
benefit is the kind of people who are attracted to it and use it.

Phil
Post by horrido
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
Mad Men is a bit over these days of disintermediation. At one point they
tried to sell us radium enriched underwear...

Just have been closing deals for 15 years on my own. Good marketing is
about being an object of interest so that leads do6 trust you and are
willing to go for added value.

Phil
Post by horrido
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horrido
2015-01-03 18:51:36 UTC
Permalink
You are absolutely correct. People do not buy technology; they buy the
benefits of that technology.

However, you have to first /sell/ them on the idea of Smalltalk before they
will listen to your message. This is what the SRP is all about.

You are talking to them, but they aren't listening to you. You are fighting
perceptions and prejudices. You have to appeal to them on a /psychological
basis/. That's what marketing is all about.

On small local scales, you have achieved success with your clients. But if
you want to grow the Smalltalk market, you cannot rely solely on grassroots
and word of mouth. I've already shown you how Smalltalk has fallen off the
cliff in public mindshare. Ignore this at your own peril.

Denial is not a river in Africa.

As for the Smalltalk Foundation, I am not trying to ruffle anyone's
feathers. I am merely stating my observation. AFAICT, the SF is more of the
same old, same old. What are they going to do differently moving forward? I
haven't seen a plan, beyond their mission statement. But more importantly, I
haven't seen a PR plan.



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Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-03 20:34:17 UTC
Permalink
Yes Richard you’re doing something that helps to expand the Smalltalk ecosystem, that’s great!

Just have in mind that you need to manage all as campaign, including internal communication

Keep telling us what communication opportunities you think we have and I’m sure more than one will be interested in them.

BTW podcasts are a great thing

I’ve been listening to Dave and Craig’s podcasts and they are making a great job at that

Also Phil who recently interviewed Herby the current Amber lead maintainer

I love radio, here is my favourite radio program <http://www.radiolab.org/>, like Seth Godin  <http://sethgodin.typepad.com/>said, is like a theatre for the mind, and radio is hard to do. But saving distances, those podcasts are kind of creating the radio experience around Smalltalk. It feels they can print some humane touch that we won’t have in forums or mail lists or IRC.

I think we are having a great 2015 start
Post by horrido
I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
*every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
penny.
Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
wife!
Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
/Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in Mad Men
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men> .
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horrido
2015-01-04 00:21:57 UTC
Permalink
Proposed full-page ad for placement in IT magazines:

My Tumblr page
<Loading Image...>

It's a teaser.

It's branding.



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horrido
2015-01-04 15:17:49 UTC
Permalink
BTW, it took me *a whole frickin' day* to produce this ad!!! I wasn't
familiar with the image-editing tools I was using, so I was using trial and
error. Three or four times, I gave up completely and started from scratch!
*This is hard work.*
Post by horrido
My Tumblr page
<https://38.media.tumblr.com/a4ffd41e778c244391d6fce9b0b3f332/tumblr_nhmm4cy5bP1qcqck5o1_1280.png>
It's a teaser.
It's branding.
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Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-04 16:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Hi Richard,

here is something that might lead to qualified feedback so you can improve any design:

Please take a look at this:
http://graphicdesign.stackexchange.com/questions/19927/where-can-i-go-to-recieve-feedback-on-web-design-projects

this site aimed to feedback
http://zurb.com/tavern <http://zurb.com/tavern>

consider this:
http://99designs.com <http://99designs.com/>


And this book is fantastic on design for non-designers:
http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Robin-Williams/dp/0321193857/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1420387453&sr=8-3&keywords=graphic+design+non-designers <http://www.amazon.com/Non-Designers-Design-Book-Robin-Williams/dp/0321193857/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1420387453&sr=8-3&keywords=graphic+design+non-designers>
Post by horrido
BTW, it took me *a whole frickin' day* to produce this ad!!! I wasn't
familiar with the image-editing tools I was using, so I was using trial and
error. Three or four times, I gave up completely and started from scratch!
*This is hard work.*
Post by horrido
My Tumblr page
<https://38.media.tumblr.com/a4ffd41e778c244391d6fce9b0b3f332/tumblr_nhmm4cy5bP1qcqck5o1_1280.png>
It's a teaser.
It's branding.
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horrido
2015-01-02 18:15:49 UTC
Permalink
Our Facebook page needs some TLC (2 Likes so far; looks rather lonely).
PLEASE, go there and "Like" it!



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stepharo
2014-12-30 15:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Many of the top languages got there by fortuitous happenstance. JavaScript
was esp. lucky in being embedded in every browser on the planet. Java had
corporate sponsorship. C++ had a lot of history.
Yes, grassroots helped the likes of Python and Ruby, but I contend those
days are over. Mozilla, for example, needs grassroots to help Rust, but I
don't see Rust succeeding. Today, it's not enough to have good
libraries/tools, documentation, and word of mouth.
Pharo is not alone. I see LOTS of other languages trying to do the same
thing. Most of them will remain in relative obscurity. I bet my life on it.
You need more contributors? How are you going to get them? It comes down to
the same thing. Marketing and mindshare.
PR is bullshit. But it's also a door that opens for Pharo to get its message
out. Where would iPhone be without PR bullshit?
Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it?
build trust by doing.
Post by horrido
Frankly, I'm happy to move on to other things in my life.
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horrido
2014-12-30 15:16:33 UTC
Permalink
What else would you like me to do, in addition to what I've already
described?
Post by stepharo
Post by horrido
Smalltalk needs an edge. I'm trying to give you that edge. Do you want it?
build trust by doing.
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Sven Van Caekenberghe
2014-12-30 14:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by horrido
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a
mistake.
More PR, more people doing marketing is good, we'll see how it goes, I wish you good luck.

However, about this 'Pharo is (not) Smalltalk', you've just proven our point: we deliberately distance ourselves somewhat from classic Smalltalk. Both because most people think Smalltalk is dead and a relic of the past and we want to avoid that negative connotation, and because the next thing always is 'No, don't do that, you can't change anything'. Pharo was started precisely because we want the freedom to change things where necessary (on all levels, VM, language, compiler, runtime, libraries, concepts, tools, ..) - and we have been doing that quite successfully for years now.

Do we deny our heritage, no, but we don't stress it. This is a choice that we made.

Sven
Ben Coman
2014-12-30 14:36:11 UTC
Permalink
Repost (it was rejected as from the wrong account)
Hi richard, I appreciate your goal. Smalltalk & Pharo do need more PR. I
can see how Pharo not being "a smalltalk" may affect it being your
poster-child for your new site, however you should review the archives
before launching into that argument as a newcomer :)
Although as a PR exercise, outside viewpoints are useful.
Certainly Pharo does not want to be "constrained" by being "a small talk"
per smalltalk80. However some of the recent posted historical videos put
that in perspective with several PARC small talk versions being quite
different. Small talk continually evolves.
Btw, can you drop the movie quotations. It comes across a bit high-handed
- like it's trying to teach something - but I can't work out your implied
meaning. Someone else's words can only ever be an approximation. You own
words are better.
Good Luck with your venture. I'll look into it more when I have Better
net access.
Ben
Post by horrido
Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the
most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a
mistake.
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horrido
2015-01-01 22:42:46 UTC
Permalink
I use movie quotations frequently in my writings as a "signature" of my
writing style. It's obviously not to everyone's taste. However, as this is
an /international/ audience I am addressing, I shall refrain from using
them. Similarly for my subtle sense of humour: I like to play on words. For
example, whenever I talk about the Vala programming language, I always refer
to it as "Vala Mal Doran". Unless you are a *Stargate: SG-1* fan, however,
you won't understand the reference and the humour.

Thanks for your input.
Post by Ben Coman
Repost (it was rejected as from the wrong account)
Btw, can you drop the movie quotations. It comes across a bit high-handed
- like it's trying to teach something - but I can't work out your implied
meaning. Someone else's words can only ever be an approximation. You own
words are better.
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Benoit St-Jean
2014-12-30 14:04:38 UTC
Permalink
Some features:>- Slots
- Opal compiler
- Enhanced collections
- Removal of a lot of old craft
- Nativeboost
- TxText
- GToolkit
- Better infrastructure
- Command line handlers
- JSON support>One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it different and powerful.>I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the development experience.>Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the UI. Not many contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it matters to me. I hate black magic >happening. With Pharo I can make sense of things.>I do feel empowered when using Pharo.
Not so with other languages and tools where I feel like a user not a (co)-owner.>There is this irrational inner joy associated with elegance. I feel it. I like it. It is what makes me choose it over more mainstream tech. We 'll see how far this >will lead me and my business.>Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is only so much time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be it.>Phil
I can understand some of the arguments of both sides but one has to take into consideration that not all users are familiar with Smalltalk and not everyone uses Smalltalk for the same reasons.  For some, what you see as Pharo's strengths are seen by others as its main weaknesses.
Slots?  So what?  I have yet to see a use for it that makes my life way easier as a developer. 

Opal compiler?  As long as it compiles, why should I care? If you're into compilers and want to experiment, that's a plus I admit it.  If you're not, who cares?
Enhanced collections?  You're always one package away from those with Cincom Public Repository.
Removal of a lot of old craft?  Yeah, that one is an argument when you compare Pharo against Squeak, especially on the Morphic side.  But dead wood in VisualWorks or VAST, I don't see much!
NativeBoost?  If you can demonstrate that Pharo is faster than VisualWorks or easier to interface with external ressources, I'll buy it!
TxText & GToolkit : as I said, you can always get (or port) the equivalent with VAST & VisualWorks.
Infrastructure?  Okay, automated builds & tests but so what?  If Dolphin Smalltalk works fine right out of the box, why should I be concerned with how it works/compiles/tests if I want to *use* it and not *develop* it?  Do you really care about how DB/2 compiles or your priority is that it does the job?
Command line & JSON : as always, you have have that elsewhere for most products.
I'll admit it's fun to know how things work under the hood but for most of us, it's simply irrelevant.  I've worked on huge projects and, most of the time, clients want specific features & results.
I've had to work with VAST lots of  times and  on most occasions, the rationale of that choice was pretty simple for the client : it had "out of the box" DB/2 & COBOL & MQSeries support as well as *reports* (never underestimate their love of reports!).
On other occasions, the client preferred VisualWorks because of portability and speed.
If you'd tell me you're into music & MIDI, I'd recommend Squeak.
At one time, if you had told me you needed a cheap native Smalltalk development environment, I would have recommended Dolphin.
I don't believe in "ours is sooooo much better" arguments.
My favorite Smalltalk is VW but for some projects, I would just not use it!
I'm very familiar with VAST but for some projects, I just wouldn't use it!
The same way I've mostly preferred DB/2 over other RDBMS but, for some jobs, DB/2 is simply not the answer, as much as I love it!  The same way GemStone/S sucks for some jobs!
My main reason to love Pharo is it's extremely rapid pace of new features and the fact that the Pharo community hasn't constrained itself into the "we must be backward or Smalltalk-80 compatible" mindset.  That's a plus if you already know Smalltalk and you want to experiment new ideas but if you're a newcomer, I would certainly recommend another Smalltalk to learn the language.  Wanna know why?  I spend my time, each & every night on IRC answering private questions about "how come this code I found in a Smalltalk tutorial/package/fileOut doesn't work/load in Pharo".
See?  For a newcomer, Pharo is often times waaaay too far from Squeak and/or Smalltalk-80.  There are TONS of snippets/code/tutorials/packages/fileOut out there that expect, somehow, that your environment is a close cousin of Smalltalk-80.  There a re tons of packages on squeaksource.com that don't load into Pharo without some work that a newbie cannot do.   There are tons of code in the Cincom Public Repository or Dolphin goodies or VAST goodies that don't load into Pharo without much work, way too much work for a newbie...

Besides, most newbies want to be able to build *something* and then play with it.  If you can show me that you can build a screen with a few widgets in Pharo *faster* than you can do it in VAST, VW or Dolphin, I'll be convinced.
We musn't forget that not all users of Pharo are familiar with "Pharo's dialect" and are able to correct/fix/understand the differences between what they expect to load and what Pharo can actually load.
Add to that code management, package dependencies, old/contradictory documentation/terminology  found everywhere (Universes, packages,  fileOuts, Bundles, Applications, Pundle, Configuration Maps, Monticello, Metacello, GitHub) and you will easily see why, lots of times, newcomers just give up.
"I just want to build a f*cking window with a few fields (firstname, lastname, date of birth), a list (marital status), a checkbox and a text field for comments and it takes eons to build and tons of code" is a comment I  regularly get.  In VW and VAST & Dolphin, that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box.

"I just want to f*cking  read data from a database [insert favorite database here] and it's so complicated" is a comment I  regularly get.  In VW and VAST , that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box.
I can assure you that, from questions I have every day, being a newbie in Smalltalk and using Pharo is not an easy thing.
So let's stop arguing that WhateverSmalltalk is better than AnotherSmalltalk.  It might be in some cases for some jobs but in the meantime, one of our (the Smalltalk Community) big problem is attracting new people to Smalltalk and make them stay with us.  The paradigm shift of pure OO and development tools & the "image thing" is a lot of concepts that aren't easy to grasp if all you've known is Java, C++ or C#.
Documentation is the key.  And on that side, Pharo got it right.  There will never be too many PBE or kilon's videos!  Let's not forget that what is obvious to us can sometimes appear (or be) eons away for a newbie!

 -----------------Benoit St-Jean
Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean
Twitter: @BenLeChialeux
Pinterest: benoitstjean
IRC: lamneth
Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com
"A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero".  (A. Einstein)
horrido
2015-01-04 22:25:52 UTC
Permalink
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.

I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
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Aaron Rosenzweig
2015-01-04 23:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

The Squeak images tend to be more tuned towards grade-school education. In particular, “eToys” sits on top of smalltalk and is perfect for young elementary school students to take their first steps in computer programming.

My children went through the “waveplace” video tutorials. They did the beta one which was more in depth and had like 30 videos if I remember correctly.

Pharo is more “professional.” Not to say there is anything wrong with Squeak, it was used for DabbleDB… It’s just that most developers don’t want to see a mouse with eyeballs following your cursor when you first launch the image. You can remove that from the image, etc. but it’s that first feel.

Overall Squeak seems like it blends in better in the classroom and Pharo suits developers more. I’ll probably be flamed for saying it but realize it’s a high level generalization. I know there is more going on underneath and I know that Pharo is the primary target for Seaside, etc. Both Squeak and Pharo are nice.
AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
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horrido
2015-01-05 19:08:04 UTC
Permalink
I just went through a few of the Waveplace videos. I am impressed. They are
truly excellent videos and I can see how they can engage youngsters and
gently introduce programming concepts to them. Why aren't these being used
in Canadian elementary schools??? I shall have to ask.

Beyond the early grades, students can continue learning programming with
Pharo. I see this as a smooth migration. This is getting exciting!
Post by Aaron Rosenzweig
Hi,
The Squeak images tend to be more tuned towards grade-school education. In
particular, “eToys” sits on top of smalltalk and is perfect for young
elementary school students to take their first steps in computer
programming.
My children went through the “waveplace” video tutorials. They did the
beta one which was more in depth and had like 30 videos if I remember
correctly.
Pharo is more “professional.” Not to say there is anything wrong with
Squeak, it was used for DabbleDB… It’s just that most developers don’t
want to see a mouse with eyeballs following your cursor when you first
launch the image. You can remove that from the image, etc. but it’s that
first feel.
Overall Squeak seems like it blends in better in the classroom and Pharo
suits developers more. I’ll probably be flamed for saying it but realize
it’s a high level generalization. I know there is more going on underneath
and I know that Pharo is the primary target for Seaside, etc. Both Squeak
and Pharo are nice.
AARON ROSENZWEIG / Chat 'n Bike
t: (301) 956-2319
On Jan 4, 2015, at 5:25 PM, horrido &lt;
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
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stepharo
2015-01-05 08:08:50 UTC
Permalink
It depends what is the level you are looking for.
We are working on lectures and books for second and third year
university students.

Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or
software is writting in Smalltalk.

Stef
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
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horrido
2015-01-05 14:31:18 UTC
Permalink
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at
introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on
Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would
be overkill.
Post by stepharo
It depends what is the level you are looking for.
We are working on lectures and books for second and third year
university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or
software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ben Coman
2015-01-05 14:46:05 UTC
Permalink
Maybe Phratch? Then maybe they start looking under the hood?
http://www.phratch.com/
Post by horrido
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at
introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on
Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would
be overkill.
Post by stepharo
It depends what is the level you are looking for.
We are working on lectures and books for second and third year
university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or
software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education in the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.html
Post by stepharo
Post by horrido
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
horrido
2015-01-05 15:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Thanks! I had never heard of Phratch (or Scratch, for that matter). It looks
very promising. I can imagine it's sorta like LEGO in Smalltalk. What
youngster wouldn't like that?
Post by Ben Coman
Maybe Phratch? Then maybe they start looking under the hood?
http://www.phratch.com/
On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 10:31 PM, horrido &lt;
Post by horrido
Oh, I didn't realize you were focussed on older kids. I'm looking at
introducing Smalltalk at the elementary school level, getting kids hooked on
Smalltalk at an early age. Probably a full-blown Pharo or Squeak image would
be overkill.
Post by stepharo
It depends what is the level you are looking for.
We are working on lectures and books for second and third year
university students.
Now for kids I do not think that it matters if this the language or
software is writting in Smalltalk.
Stef
Post by horrido
I am intrigued. Where can I find more info about Smalltalk education
in
Post by stepharo
Post by horrido
the
schools? I want to see what I can do in Canada.
I presume there is a Smalltalk image customized for the classroom and aimed
at elementary school students. That's what I'm hoping for.
Post by stepharo
ESUG is about the community. Without community then it is terrible.
We set up also a program for teachers. Now in the US there is nearly
nobody teaching smalltalk and this is a pity.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797760.html
Post by stepharo
Post by horrido
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797846.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797868.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sebastian Sastre
2014-12-29 23:23:09 UTC
Permalink
I’m a Smalltalker that is happy when JavaScript and LISP and Phyton and Ruby and Dart gain popularity because it makes my life easier when I have to explain to the next dynamic friendly developer how our workspace, inspector and debugger works and how our library gets navigated so the new guy can fell he can master it by himself easier than other tools (which is a Smalltalk language design intention from day zero, and totally successful at it BTW).

I can understand that some might feel indifferent at Scala or Java popularity but being "a Pharoer” and hostile, antagonising or actively indifferent to Smalltalk's popularity and branding efforts is a frank strategic parricide <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parricide>
Post by horrido
KIRK: Then what is it?
GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before
your race was born, I have awaited a question.
KIRK: What are you?
GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.
KIRK: Are you machine or being?
GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable.
Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is
a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where
Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100
list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl,
Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about
in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost
never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe
I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not
enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are
/technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need
to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell
Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other
words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather
staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change
this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the
language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep
the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am
not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance,
although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You
can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community
to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay
topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the
future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with
it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose
the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee
you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the
concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling
arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so
on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press,
such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your
contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship.
If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much
mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant
following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's
highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name
backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to
succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of
inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer
term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk
technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk
environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing
file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with
existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a
source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be
financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot.
And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some
degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the
Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane
Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm
only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter.
(Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a
work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can
tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has
been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe
you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future.
For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more
attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
p***@highoctane.be
2014-12-30 00:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sebastian Sastre
I’m a Smalltalker that is happy when JavaScript and LISP and Phyton and
Ruby and Dart gain popularity because it makes my life easier when I have
to explain to the next dynamic friendly developer how our workspace,
inspector and debugger works and how our library gets navigated so the new
guy can fell he can master it by himself easier than other tools (which is
a Smalltalk language design intention from day zero, and totally successful
at it BTW).
Post by Sebastian Sastre
I can understand that some might feel indifferent at Scala or Java
popularity but being "a Pharoer” and hostile, antagonising or actively
indifferent to Smalltalk's popularity and branding efforts is a frank
strategic parricide

And so we entered the land of Zealots of True Faith (tm).

PR is useful. But patronizing what is and what is not leaves me cold.

Phil
Post by Sebastian Sastre
Post by horrido
KIRK: Then what is it?
GUARDIAN: *A question.* Since before your sun burned hot in space and before
your race was born, I have awaited a question.
KIRK: What are you?
GUARDIAN: I am the Guardian of Forever.
KIRK: Are you machine or being?
GUARDIAN: I am both and neither. I am my own beginning, my own ending.
-----
Clearly, I need to explain myself in greater detail...
The efforts of organizations such as STIC and ESUG are laudable.
Nevertheless, they have failed to popularize Smalltalk. Today, *Smalltalk is
a largely forgotten language*. This can be seen at the TIOBE index where
Smalltalk has literally fallen off a cliff (it used to be on the top 100
list, but has since disappeared). At Redmonk and langpop.corger.nl,
Smalltalk is somewhere around the 65th position!
Smalltalk does not get much developer attention. It doesn't get talked about
in the press like Dart and JavaScript and Java do. The language is almost
never on the minds of CEOs and CTOs, the business decision makers. I believe
I know why.
Smalltalk organizations have focussed too much on /technical merit/, and not
enough on PR and marketing. Understandable, since engineers are
/technically-minded/ and not so much into human behaviour. I think we need
to treat developers and businessmen like consumers. We need to sell
Smalltalk to them in the same way we sell iPhones and PlayStations. In other
words, we need to build /hype/.
Let's face it: at the best of times, the subject of Smalltalk is rather
staid. STIC and ESUG and the Smalltalk Foundation are not likely to change
this. *I want Smalltalk Renaissance to change this.*
The Smalltalk Renaissance Program is a highly focussed campaign. Like the
language itself, I want to Keep It Simple. (That's why I'm trying to keep
the website clean and free of excess baggage.)
The SRP cannot succeed without /your/ involvement, your participation. I am
not much more than the curator and editor for Smalltalk Renaissance,
although I'm also formulating the short-term and long-term strategy. (You
can call me "Generalissimo" Eng. ;-) )
One of the things I intend to do is ask members of the Smalltalk community
to submit /fresh/ essays and articles on Smalltalk. I have a list of essay
topics prepared, carefully chosen for their relevance and impact on the
future of Smalltalk. I shall be asking people to pick a topic and run with
it. If there are multiple submissions for a particular topic, I shall choose
the best one, edit it, and post it on Smalltalk Renaissance. *I guarantee
you will look good!*
Make no mistake, this is a critical step. *These essays will address the
concerns of non-Smalltalk developers.* You need to make compelling
arguments.
Then we promote these articles and essays on Reddit and Hacker News and so
on.
In the near future, I will also submit Smalltalk articles to the IT press,
such as Wired and InfoWorld. These articles may well benefit from /your
contributions/.
Another important piece of the strategy is to obtain corporate sponsorship.
If not for Apple, the Swift language would never have gotten so much
mindshare. If not for Google, Go would've failed to gain a significant
following. If not for Microsoft, C# would've been forgotten. In today's
highly competitive programming language field, if you don't have a big name
backer, you're already behind the eight ball. Grass roots are unlikely to
succeed.
Getting the imprimatur of a major technology company is a PR coup of
inestimable value. But it's also vital for another reason. In the longer
term, I want to launch software projects that improve on the Smalltalk
technology. Projects such as extending the tooling around the Smalltalk
environment (which has been criticized for not playing well with existing
file-based tooling). Projects such as improving interoperability with
existing (Windows-based) infrastructures in the enterprise (which has been a
source of criticism from the likes of Robert Martin). These projects must be
financed because open source volunteerism isn't enough, not by a long shot.
And this is why we need corporate sponsorship.
Before I make a pitch to a CEO, Smalltalk Renaissance must achieve some
degree of legitimacy. It can do this by signing up well-known names from the
Smalltalk community. Names such as the late James Robertson or Stéphane
Ducasse. I already have a draft letter prepared for an important CEO. I'm
only waiting for a list of SRP signatories before firing off the letter.
(Hint, hint.)
This is what I've come up with so far in my strategic planning. It's a
work-in-progress.
As for Pharo, I've downloaded it and played with it briefly. As far as I can
tell, the IDE is not much different from Squeak. Like I said, the design has
been tweaked and improved, but I don't see anything groundbreaking. Maybe
you and I have different ideas of what "groundbreaking" means.
Nevertheless, as another poster indicated, we can leave this for the future.
For the time being, we need to make Smalltalk, and Pharo in particular, more
attractive to the Enterprise. I'm sure Pharo is doing this. Kudos.
--
http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797313.html
Post by Sebastian Sastre
Post by horrido
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
stepharo
2014-12-30 13:42:19 UTC
Permalink
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