Discussion:
InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
(too old to reply)
horrido
2015-01-14 22:40:06 UTC
Permalink
http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
<http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>

Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!

This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
about the campaign as far and wide as I could.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2015-01-14 22:55:38 UTC
Permalink
A blank.

Nothing happened to this project in more than a year

https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master

It is mostly vapourware and has no users.

People following the links on the article will soon find out.

Just sad.

> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>
>
> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>
> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-01-14 23:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Picking up and promoting inactive projects just to put a tick on a
feature's checkbox can backfire big time.

If there is one thing I've been always proud as a Smtalltalker is that
we don't sell hype or vaporware, rather the contrary (which is also a failure).

I'm all in to embrace an aggressive PR campaign, but only if properly curated.

Regards!

Esteban A. Maringolo


2015-01-14 19:55 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu>:
> A blank.
>
> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>
> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>
> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>
> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>
> Just sad.
>
>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>
>>
>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>
>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>
>
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-14 23:30:21 UTC
Permalink
On the other hand we are fragmented and compartamentalized big time.

It’s 2015 and I never had hear about this before (from 2013):
http://bulenkov.com/2013/04/23/smalltalk-support-in-intellij-idea/ <http://bulenkov.com/2013/04/23/smalltalk-support-in-intellij-idea/>

Something like that would give you the power of all the Java libraries.

Are you feeling it?

That’s exactly the propeller that Clojure has used to go where it is now.



> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Picking up and promoting inactive projects just to put a tick on a
> feature's checkbox can backfire big time.
>
> If there is one thing I've been always proud as a Smtalltalker is that
> we don't sell hype or vaporware, rather the contrary (which is also a failure).
>
> I'm all in to embrace an aggressive PR campaign, but only if properly curated.
>
> Regards!
>
> Esteban A. Maringolo
>
>
> 2015-01-14 19:55 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu>:
>> A blank.
>>
>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>
>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>
>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>
>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>
>> Just sad.
>>
>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>
>>>
>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>
>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>
>>
>>
>
stepharo
2015-01-15 07:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Le 15/1/15 00:30, Sebastian Sastre a écrit :
> On the other hand we are fragmented and compartamentalized big time.



>
> It’s 2015 and I never had hear about this before (from 2013):
> http://bulenkov.com/2013/04/23/smalltalk-support-in-intellij-idea/
>
> Something like that would give you the power of all the Java libraries.
>
> Are you feeling it?
>
> That’s exactly the propeller that Clojure has used to go where it is now.
>
>
>
>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:24 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo
>> <***@gmail.com <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Picking up and promoting inactive projects just to put a tick on a
>> feature's checkbox can backfire big time.
>>
>> If there is one thing I've been always proud as a Smtalltalker is that
>> we don't sell hype or vaporware, rather the contrary (which is also a
>> failure).
>>
>> I'm all in to embrace an aggressive PR campaign, but only if properly
>> curated.
>>
>> Regards!
>>
>> Esteban A. Maringolo
>>
>>
>> 2015-01-14 19:55 GMT-03:00 Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu
>> <mailto:***@stfx.eu>>:
>>> A blank.
>>>
>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>>
>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>>
>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>>
>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>>
>>> Just sad.
>>>
>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido <***@gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>>> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>
>>>>
>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>>
>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the
>>>> word
>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
Craig Latta
2015-01-14 23:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sven--

> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year... It is mostly >
vapourware and has no users. People following the links on the
> article will soon find out.

Well, perhaps this reminder will stimulate some interest.


-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-14 23:32:55 UTC
Permalink
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Craig Latta <***@netjam.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Sven--
>
>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year... It is mostly >
> vapourware and has no users. People following the links on the
>> article will soon find out.
>
> Well, perhaps this reminder will stimulate some interest.
>

totally +1

The guy only needs 4K and this gets to 1.0?

We’re nutz if that doesn’t happen
Esteban A. Maringolo
2015-01-14 23:44:51 UTC
Permalink
Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also
get you bitten. :)
El ene 14, 2015 8:33 PM, "Sebastian Sastre" <***@flowingconcept.com>
escribió:

>
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Craig Latta <***@netjam.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Sven--
>
> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year... It is mostly >
>
> vapourware and has no users. People following the links on the
>
> article will soon find out.
>
>
> Well, perhaps this reminder will stimulate some interest.
>
>
> totally +1
>
> The guy only needs 4K and this gets to 1.0?
>
> We’re nutz if that doesn’t happen
>
>
>
Craig Latta
2015-01-15 00:36:18 UTC
Permalink
> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
> also get you bitten. :)

Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.


-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
kilon alios
2015-01-15 07:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or LANGPOP
or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based languages
. Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near
as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers are
just different in only few percentage units.

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

http://langpop.com/

Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but anywhere,
in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise
and praise.

I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.

So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons
of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem
more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to
abandon Java any time soon.

So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.

The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.

So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta <***@netjam.org> wrote:

>
> > Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
> > also get you bitten. :)
>
> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>
>
> -C
>
> --
> Craig Latta
> netjam.org
> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>
>
>
horrido
2015-01-15 15:08:01 UTC
Permalink
As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish. Much
of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever.

Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" website for
language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense to
me.

Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're doing
at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is
red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.)

I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes.
That's why I am sanguine about Redline – we need it!


kilon.alios wrote
> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or
> LANGPOP
> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based
> languages
> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near
> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers
> are
> just different in only few percentage units.
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>
> http://langpop.com/
>
> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but
> anywhere,
> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise
> and praise.
>
> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.
>
> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons
> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem
> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to
> abandon Java any time soon.
>
> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.
>
> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.
>
> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta &lt;

> craig@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>>
>> > Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
>> > also get you bitten. :)
>>
>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>>
>>
>> -C
>>
>> --
>> Craig Latta
>> netjam.org
>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>>
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Andreas Wacknitz
2015-01-15 15:33:54 UTC
Permalink
Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido:
> As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish. Much
> of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever.
>
> Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" website for
> language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense to
> me.
>
> Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're doing
> at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is
> red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.)
http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/

>
> I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes.
> That's why I am sanguine about Redline – we need it!
>
>
> kilon.alios wrote
>> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or
>> LANGPOP
>> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based
>> languages
>> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
>> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near
>> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
>> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers
>> are
>> just different in only few percentage units.
>>
>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>>
>> http://langpop.com/
>>
>> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
>> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but
>> anywhere,
>> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
>> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise
>> and praise.
>>
>> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
>> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
>> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.
>>
>> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
>> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons
>> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
>> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
>> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem
>> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to
>> abandon Java any time soon.
>>
>> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.
>>
>> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.
>>
>> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta &lt;
>> craig@
>> &gt; wrote:
>>
>>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
>>>> also get you bitten. :)
>>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>>>
>>>
>>> -C
>>>
>>> --
>>> Craig Latta
>>> netjam.org
>>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
>>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
Marcus Denker
2015-01-15 15:45:42 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list...
I am sure ESUG could host that.

On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 12:33 PM, Andreas Wacknitz <***@gmx.de>
wrote:

>
> Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido:
>
>> As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish.
>> Much
>> of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever.
>>
>> Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/> is my "go to" website for
>> language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense
>> to
>> me.
>>
>> Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're
>> doing
>> at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is
>> red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.)
>>
> http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/
>
>
>
>> I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes.
>> That's why I am sanguine about Redline – we need it!
>>
>>
>> kilon.alios wrote
>>
>>> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or
>>> LANGPOP
>>> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based
>>> languages
>>> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
>>> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near
>>> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
>>> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers
>>> are
>>> just different in only few percentage units.
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>>>
>>> http://langpop.com/
>>>
>>> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
>>> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but
>>> anywhere,
>>> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
>>> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise
>>> and praise.
>>>
>>> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
>>> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
>>> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.
>>>
>>> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
>>> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with
>>> tons
>>> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
>>> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
>>> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem
>>> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing
>>> to
>>> abandon Java any time soon.
>>>
>>> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.
>>>
>>> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.
>>>
>>> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta &lt;
>>> craig@
>>> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
>>>>> also get you bitten. :)
>>>>>
>>>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -C
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Craig Latta
>>>> netjam.org
>>>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
>>>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-
>> Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
>


--
--
Marcus Denker -- ***@acm.org
http://www.marcusdenker.de
Serge Stinckwich
2015-01-15 15:51:49 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Marcus Denker <***@inria.fr> wrote:
> I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list...
> I am sure ESUG could host that.

;-)

There was a comp.smalltalk.advocacy groups in the old days of
newsgroups, but nobody seems to use it anymore:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/comp.lang.smalltalk.advocacy

Regards,
--
Serge Stinckwich
UCBN & UMI UMMISCO 209 (IRD/UPMC)
Every DSL ends up being Smalltalk
http://www.doesnotunderstand.org/
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:12:45 UTC
Permalink
+1

Stef

> I wonder if it would make sense to add a "Smalltalk-talk" mailing list...
> I am sure ESUG could host that.
>
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Hi guys,

Why I found this kind of discussion distracting is
- 500 people * 10 seconds * 30 mails = too much
- I do not want to lose time reading it
- I do not want to feel the need to say some points when I stupid
gross estimation or statements.
- I want to get focus on getting impact right now on Pharo.

So I think that I will start to ban some discussions from this
mailing-lists.
If auto regulation does not work, active policy will get a result.

Stef
Craig Latta
2015-01-17 10:18:57 UTC
Permalink
Hoi Stef--

> I do not want to lose time reading it

I find I can get through the mailing list in a couple of minutes a
day by reading via NNTP from Gmane, and killing threads I no longer find
interesting.


-C

--
Craig Latta
netjam.org
+31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
+ 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
Torsten Bergmann
2015-01-17 12:47:16 UTC
Permalink
I use a normal webbrowser to read/follow it in combination with:

http://lists.pharo.org

is a real timesaver to go through the list/discussions. Access to a
web browser is often quick to have and no e-mail tool can provide such
a nice overview. Also the URL is easy to remember.

Would be nice if the above entry page would not only link to pharo-dev,
pharo-users and pharo business list but also also link to

http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-bugtracker

With this bugtracker archive one is also able to quickly get an overview
what is currently in the pipe regarding the issues to solve/fixed/discussed

A direkt link to the VM developer archive http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/vm-dev
would also be nice to have.

Who cares about these lists/pages?

Maybe we should have an info.pharo.org HTML page that links to the most
usefull resources like twitter, blogs, mailinglists, ...

Would be willing to contribute but do not know anything about
- the infrastructure the pharo website are running on (box, webserver, etc)
- who cares about the page
- if it is maintained in git or elsewhere

Bye
T.

> Gesendet: Samstag, 17. Januar 2015 um 11:18 Uhr
> Von: "Craig Latta" <***@netjam.org>
> An: pharo-***@lists.pharo.org
> Betreff: Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk
>
>
> Hoi Stef--
>
> > I do not want to lose time reading it
>
> I find I can get through the mailing list in a couple of minutes a
> day by reading via NNTP from Gmane, and killing threads I no longer find
> interesting.
>
>
> -C
>
> --
> Craig Latta
> netjam.org
> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>
>
>
horrido
2015-01-15 16:36:16 UTC
Permalink
Wesolows' opinion may or may not be valid, I don't know. But more
importantly, I don't care. The *only* thing that matters to me is whether Go
compiles quickly, executes quickly, and makes it easy to write my
applications. The plumbing is irrelevant to me.

As long as the Go team continues to improve the performance of the language
(including the runtime), I shall support Go. As a life-long C programmer, I
recognize that Go delivers a far superior experience. It's even better than
Python, though admittedly I have much less experience with Python.


Andreas Wacknitz wrote
> Am 15.01.15 16:08, schrieb horrido:
>> As I've written elsewhere, I believe the TIOBE index is plain rubbish.
>> Much
>> of their rankings make no sense to me whatsoever.
>>
>> Langpop.corger.nl &lt;http://langpop.corger.nl/&gt; is my "go to"
>> website for
>> language rankings. It's not perfect, but it makes a whole lot more sense
>> to
>> me.
>>
>> Scala, Groovy, and Clojure are not "ultimate failures." Heck, they're
>> doing
>> at least as well as Go, my second favourite language of all time. (Go is
>> red-hot in China. Go has an enviable set of "standard" libraries.)
> http://dtrace.org/blogs/wesolows/2014/12/29/golang-is-trash/
>
>>
>> I agree that Java is our greatest foe. We are "300" against its Xerxes.
>> That's why I am sanguine about Redline – we need it!
>>
>>
>> kilon.alios wrote
>>> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or
>>> LANGPOP
>>> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based
>>> languages
>>> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
>>> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere
>>> near
>>> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
>>> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers
>>> are
>>> just different in only few percentage units.
>>>
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>>>
>>> http://langpop.com/
>>>
>>> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
>>> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but
>>> anywhere,
>>> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
>>> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and
>>> praise
>>> and praise.
>>>
>>> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
>>> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
>>> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.
>>>
>>> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
>>> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with
>>> tons
>>> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
>>> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
>>> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages
>>> seem
>>> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing
>>> to
>>> abandon Java any time soon.
>>>
>>> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.
>>>
>>> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.
>>>
>>> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta &lt;
>>> craig@
>>> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
>>>>> also get you bitten. :)
>>>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -C
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Craig Latta
>>>> netjam.org
>>>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
>>>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799716.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>





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Sean P. DeNigris
2015-01-16 01:30:23 UTC
Permalink
horrido wrote > Langpop.corger.nl <http://langpop.corger.nl/>
> is my "go to" website for language rankings. It's not perfect, but it
> makes a whole lot more sense to me.

Maybe better than the garbage TIOBE, but suffers from the same problem -
namely, that the greatest environments and communities least often force
users to resort to a site like SO (see http://seandenigris.com/blog/?p=911).
I get my questions answered by: exploring the image, reading a great free
book, or asking on the mailing list (in that order). Of course, we have the
additional "handicap" (score-wise) that so much of our code is stored
outside of git.



-----
Cheers,
Sean
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horrido
2015-01-15 15:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Langpop.com was last updated in October of 2013. That's an eternity in our
industry.

I look forward to the Redmonk rankings later this month (they're done twice
a year). I believe they're based on the same data as langpop.corger.nl, so
you can get an early preview!

Clojure gets tons of praise. That's why it has so much mindshare. /Hype
works./ We need to build some hype for Smalltalk.


kilon.alios wrote
> Lets see the big picture here, if you take a look at TIOBE INDEX or
> LANGPOP
> or the internet at large you get a clear picture about java based
> languages
> . Popularity wise they have been a ultimate failure. Right now the only
> language that is barely noticable is Scala and even Scala is nowhere near
> as popular as the less popular languages like Pascal, Delphi and Visual
> Basic. Of course each website gives diffirent numbers but those numbers
> are
> just different in only few percentage units.
>
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>
> http://langpop.com/
>
> Hype also does not help those languages either. Take a look at Clojure ,
> one of the most overhyped languages out there not just on JVM but
> anywhere,
> in both websites I mentioned Clojure like Pharo does not make it even in
> top 50. Tons of blogs post about Clojure only, tons of praise, and praise
> and praise.
>
> I can say about jython itself , a python implementation for the JVM and
> ironpython which is python for .NET are barely noticable in the python
> world with cpython gathering at least 99.9% of the attention.
>
> So its a really hard situation . Coding has become extremely complex and
> demanding , coders want languages are deeply documented and come with tons
> of libraries so its very hard for new languages to kick in. Also the
> assumption that because you love a language you will be willing to start
> using java libraries seems to have failed miserably. These languages seem
> more appealing to java developers and java developers dont seem willing to
> abandon Java any time soon.
>
> So as always Java death has been greatly exaggerated.
>
> The situation for Javascript based languages is even worse.
>
> So frankly what has happened with Redline is pretty normal.
>
> On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Craig Latta &lt;

> craig@

> &gt; wrote:
>
>>
>> > Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can
>> > also get you bitten. :)
>>
>> Sure, and shaking the hive too rarely will get you starved.
>>
>>
>> -C
>>
>> --
>> Craig Latta
>> netjam.org
>> +31 6 2757 7177 (SMS ok)
>> + 1 415 287 3547 (no SMS)
>>
>>
>>





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Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-15 11:55:30 UTC
Permalink
> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also get you bitten. :)

And what’s the news on that?

The world is full of people paralysed by fear.

Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any interesting future).

The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting.
Lorenzo Schiavina
2015-01-15 12:33:20 UTC
Permalink
+1



Lorenzo



Da: Pharo-dev [mailto:pharo-dev-***@lists.pharo.org] Per conto di Sebastian Sastre
Inviato: giovedì 15 gennaio 2015 12:56
A: Pharo Development List
Oggetto: Re: [Pharo-dev] InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk





On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:44 PM, Esteban A. Maringolo <***@gmail.com> wrote:



Shaking the hive can certainly have a positive outcome, but you can also get you bitten. :)



And what’s the news on that?



The world is full of people paralysed by fear.



Scared people is not worth following (they are not going to invent any interesting future).



The ones who dear to do different are way more interesting.
horrido
2015-01-15 14:47:25 UTC
Permalink
I agree. I'm excited by Redline. We really do need a Smalltalk presence on
the JVM. The JVM is the closest thing we have right now to a "standard"
enterprise platform. (I guess I should mention .NET too, but I hate Windows
lock-in.) Java is the strongest language here, but Scala, Groovy, and
Clojure have some measure of success.


***@flowingconcept.com wrote
>> On Jan 14, 2015, at 9:29 PM, Craig Latta &lt;

> craig@

> &gt; wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sven--
>>
>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year... It is mostly >
>> vapourware and has no users. People following the links on the
>>> article will soon find out.
>>
>> Well, perhaps this reminder will stimulate some interest.
>>
>
> totally +1
>
> The guy only needs 4K and this gets to 1.0?
>
> We’re nutz if that doesn’t happen





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horrido
2015-01-15 14:19:33 UTC
Permalink
Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo:
https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc>

James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website.


Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> A blank.
>
> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>
> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>
> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>
> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>
> Just sad.
>
>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt; wrote:
>>
>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>> &lt;http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html&gt;
>>
>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>
>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>>





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Sven Van Caekenberghe
2015-01-15 15:06:39 UTC
Permalink
Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so.

Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric.

My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual.

Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now.

IMHO, of course.

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo:
> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc>
>
> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website.
>
>
> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>> A blank.
>>
>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>
>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>
>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>
>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>
>> Just sad.
>>
>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido &lt;
>
>> horrido.hobbies@
>
>> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>> &lt;http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html&gt;
>>>
>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>
>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
horrido
2015-01-15 15:14:22 UTC
Permalink
There's no reason why we can't fight on several fronts. Pharo is great, but
it ignores the JVM platform. Pharo is great, but we need Amber on the client
side. I'm even hopeful about Essence# for .NET.

It would be terrific if we can rally more contributors to the Redline
project. Strategically, this is a very important project. I cannot emphasize
this enough.


Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
> Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so.
>
> Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time
> (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly,
> inaccurate metric.
>
> My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that
> contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the
> best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a
> high quality platform by working together. The number of different
> competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform
> can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual.
>
> Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild
> and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments
> as what should be promoted now.
>
> IMHO, of course.
>
>> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido &lt;

> horrido.hobbies@

> &gt; wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo:
>> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc &lt;https://github.com/jamesladd/stc&gt;
>>
>> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his
>> website.
>>
>>
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> A blank.
>>>
>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>>
>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>>
>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>>
>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>>
>>> Just sad.
>>>
>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido &lt;
>>
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>
>>> &gt; wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>>> &lt;http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html&gt;
>>>>
>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>>
>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the
>>>> word
>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.





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Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-15 15:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Well.. I’ve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm.

Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesn’t say much.

It’s not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year.



> On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>
> Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so.
>
> Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric.
>
> My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual.
>
> Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now.
>
> IMHO, of course.
>
>> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo:
>> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc>
>>
>> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website.
>>
>>
>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>> A blank.
>>>
>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>>
>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>>
>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>>
>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>>
>>> Just sad.
>>>
>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido &lt;
>>
>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>
>>> &gt; wrote:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>>> &lt;http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html&gt;
>>>>
>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>>
>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2015-01-15 16:15:38 UTC
Permalink
It is not sarcasm or a race. I was just pointing out the (obvious) fact that there is a huge difference in scale. (And even then, Pharo, being the most successful Smalltalk, is pretty small).

And I was saying so in the context of the questions 'What should we promote ?' or 'Was it actually good or a success to have that mentioned in InfoWorld ?'.

Now I am going back to work on Pharo.

> On 15 Jan 2015, at 16:59, Sebastian Sastre <***@flowingconcept.com> wrote:
>
> Well.. I’ve cared to talk with James before making this kind of assumptions or listening that sarcasm.
>
> Those 20 commits are in the stable repo, not dev so the commit race doesn’t say much.
>
> It’s not ready to big time promotion but turns out Redline Smalltalk development is doing fine in moving towards 1.0 and its plans of having one release per year.
>
>
>
>> On Jan 15, 2015, at 1:06 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <***@stfx.eu> wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it is very alive: 20 commits in year or so.
>>
>> Pharo 4 has about 1700 in about the same time (https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo-core). And that is just one silly, inaccurate metric.
>>
>> My point is, there are a couple of great Smalltalk implementations that contain an incredible number of man-years of effort in their images (the best being Pharo of course, but I am biased ;-), we can only achieve a high quality platform by working together. The number of different competences needed to successfully build a *COMPLETE* software platform can *NEVER* be achieved by 'a couple of guys' let alone one individual.
>>
>> Now, it is not that they can not do so, of course they can, we need wild and crazy ideas and research, but it is just wrong to see such experiments as what should be promoted now.
>>
>> IMHO, of course.
>>
>>> On 15 Jan 2015, at 15:19, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Actually, Redline is quite alive. There's a brand new repo:
>>> https://github.com/jamesladd/stc <https://github.com/jamesladd/stc>
>>>
>>> James just hasn't gotten around to normalizing all the links at his website.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe-2 wrote
>>>> A blank.
>>>>
>>>> Nothing happened to this project in more than a year
>>>>
>>>> https://github.com/redline-smalltalk/redline-smalltalk/commits/master
>>>>
>>>> It is mostly vapourware and has no users.
>>>>
>>>> People following the links on the article will soon find out.
>>>>
>>>> Just sad.
>>>>
>>>>> On 14 Jan 2015, at 23:40, horrido &lt;
>>>
>>>> horrido.hobbies@
>>>
>>>> &gt; wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
>>>>> &lt;http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html&gt;
>>>>>
>>>>> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>>>>>
>>>>> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
>>>>> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
>>>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799699.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>
>>
>
>
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-14 23:21:24 UTC
Permalink
And James got pretty close to the goal of this campaign:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/redline-smalltalk-v1-0 <https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/redline-smalltalk-v1-0>

Interestingly, being so close, a little bit of PR at the right time could have done a difference.

Something to think about

Congratulations for the mention Richard! totally earned


> On Jan 14, 2015, at 8:40 PM, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html
> <http://www.infoworld.com/article/2867543/java/redline-smalltalk-bridging-smalltalk-jvm-worlds.html>
>
> Note the last paragraph. Our campaign will be noticed!
>
> This is exactly what I was after when I started the SRP. Spread the word
> about the campaign as far and wide as I could.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
horrido
2015-01-16 04:15:09 UTC
Permalink
I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, strategically.
On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline. It would
be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. *We need
Smalltalk on the JVM.*


jamesl wrote
> Hi Smalltalkers,
>
> Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it.
> I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using Antlr4 as well
> as cleaning up the
> internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant and I
> have spun off 'stc' to contain
> the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back into that
> main.
>
> I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying across
> the runtime library and writing
> tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and underlying
> code - which is hard to have too many people helping with.
>
> I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup (http://mywave.me) and
> personal life but I really
> am trying to find the time to push this along.
>
> I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this year and
> all going well Redline will be
> out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me.
>
> This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one JVM at a
> time ;)
>
> - James.
> Redline Smalltalk





--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Tudor Girba
2015-01-16 06:26:44 UTC
Permalink
It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there you
might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of a sudden
we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we hoped for.

In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the
thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, the
Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different that we
have a chance of reinventing software engineering.

Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That we
have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for giving up
and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer to reaching the
Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend and the most
important features are not yet out. We still have a hard road ahead of us,
but I believe we are approaching a very interesting period in the Pharo
history.

I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the larger
goal. Together, we will get there.

Doru

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, strategically.
> On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline. It
> would
> be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. *We need
> Smalltalk on the JVM.*
>
>
> jamesl wrote
> > Hi Smalltalkers,
> >
> > Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it.
> > I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using Antlr4 as
> well
> > as cleaning up the
> > internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant and I
> > have spun off 'stc' to contain
> > the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back into that
> > main.
> >
> > I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying across
> > the runtime library and writing
> > tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and
> underlying
> > code - which is hard to have too many people helping with.
> >
> > I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup (http://mywave.me)
> and
> > personal life but I really
> > am trying to find the time to push this along.
> >
> > I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this year and
> > all going well Redline will be
> > out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me.
> >
> > This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one JVM at a
> > time ;)
> >
> > - James.
> > Redline Smalltalk
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>


--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"
Alain Rastoul
2015-01-16 06:58:05 UTC
Permalink
Le 16/01/2015 07:26, Tudor Girba a écrit :
> It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there you
> might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of a
> sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we hoped for.
>
> In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the
> thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, the
> Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different that we
> have a chance of reinventing software engineering.
>
> Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That we
> have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for giving
> up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer to
> reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend and
> the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard road
> ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting period
> in the Pharo history.
>
> I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
> ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the larger
> goal. Together, we will get there.
>
> Doru
>
Nice thought
I like Purple Cows me too, green and yellow ones with squared wheel are
nice too. squared wheels give good vibrations :)

Redline smalltalk is more about marketing and surfing on the java/jvm
hype than innovation
see also
http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/01/intel-pledges-300-million-to-improve-diversity-in-tech/


> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido
> <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project,
> strategically.
> On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline.
> It would
> be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0.
> *We need
> Smalltalk on the JVM.*
>
>
> jamesl wrote
> > Hi Smalltalkers,
> >
> > Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it.
> > I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using
> Antlr4 as well
> > as cleaning up the
> > internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant
> and I
> > have spun off 'stc' to contain
> > the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back
> into that
> > main.
> >
> > I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying
> across
> > the runtime library and writing
> > tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and
> underlying
> > code - which is hard to have too many people helping with.
> >
> > I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup
> (http://mywave.me) and
> > personal life but I really
> > am trying to find the time to push this along.
> >
> > I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this
> year and
> > all going well Redline will be
> > out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me.
> >
> > This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one
> JVM at a
> > time ;)
> >
> > - James.
> > Redline Smalltalk
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"


--
Regards,

Alain
kilon alios
2015-01-16 08:44:31 UTC
Permalink
"I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
ambitious than the Smalltalk one"

I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the
official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree
on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or
anywhere on the internet.

I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It
offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my
experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding.
Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so
many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely
similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several
fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.

It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a
really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.

I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its
an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours
making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at
best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself
"Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed
mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows
me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.

I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk
implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and
moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why
? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not
ambitious enough for you ?

I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes
you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others,
especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare
say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more
than Pharo currently is.

PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people
mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not
help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those
languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001),
and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could
become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more
popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back
in 2008.

I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has
been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we
live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo
never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont
lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may
become.
Tudor Girba
2015-01-16 09:52:47 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

This topic was discussed before and I do not want to elaborate more, but
given that you seem to not have been involved in that thread, I will write
one single comment.

We have no intention to insult anyone. At the same time, we also take the
freedom to choose the goals we want. We started from Smalltalk but our goal
is not to be a Smalltalk. We might end up being one for a while, but we
might as well not. Our goal is to reinvent software engineering. This
implies that we want to get to novel things that were not invented yet,
hence difficult to plan or predict. For example, we already have
indications of novel language models (like the new compiler, slots, new
debugger model), novel IDE (GT), novel VM (Spur and the up-and-coming
Sista) and more will come.

So, when you read "Smalltalk inspired" please interpret it as saying that
while we honor the giants on the shoulders of which we build now, we want
to invent the future.

Cheers,
Doru



On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 9:44 AM, kilon alios <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
> ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>
> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the
> official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree
> on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or
> anywhere on the internet.
>
> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It
> offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my
> experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding.
> Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so
> many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely
> similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several
> fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>
> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a
> really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>
> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its
> an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours
> making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at
> best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself
> "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed
> mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows
> me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>
> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk
> implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and
> moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why
> ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not
> ambitious enough for you ?
>
> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes
> you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others,
> especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare
> say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more
> than Pharo currently is.
>
> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people
> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not
> help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those
> languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001),
> and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could
> become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more
> popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back
> in 2008.
>
> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has
> been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we
> live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo
> never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont
> lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may
> become.
>
>
>


--
www.tudorgirba.com

"Every thing has its own flow"
Sebastian Sastre
2015-01-16 11:23:16 UTC
Permalink
> On Jan 16, 2015, at 7:52 AM, Tudor Girba <***@tudorgirba.com> wrote:
>
> We have no intention to insult anyone. At the same time, we also take the freedom to choose the goals we want. We started from Smalltalk but our goal is not to be a Smalltalk. We might end up being one for a while, but we might as well not. Our goal is to reinvent software engineering. This implies that we want to get to novel things that were not invented yet, hence difficult to plan or predict. For example, we already have indications of novel language models (like the new compiler, slots, new debugger model), novel IDE (GT), novel VM (Spur and the up-and-coming Sista) and more will come.
>
> So, when you read "Smalltalk inspired" please interpret it as saying that while we honor the giants on the shoulders of which we build now, we want to invent the future.
>
> Cheers,
> Doru

This is probably the best thing I’ve read so far about the Pharo not being Smalltalk subject.

I suggest you create a blog post or try to get it published somewhere, potentially as Pharo FAQ answer

Success!
Marcus Denker
2015-01-16 09:58:21 UTC
Permalink
I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list


> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>
> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet.
>
> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>
> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>
> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>
> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ?
>
> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.
>
> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008.
>
> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become.
>
>
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2015-01-16 10:11:46 UTC
Permalink
> On 16 Jan 2015, at 10:58, Marcus Denker <***@inria.fr> wrote:
>
> I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…

+1024

These discussions have nothing to do with developing or using Pharo.

>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>>
>> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet.
>>
>> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>>
>> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>>
>> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>>
>> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ?
>>
>> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.
>>
>> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008.
>>
>> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become.
>>
>>
>
kilon alios
2015-01-16 10:37:22 UTC
Permalink
"I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list
"

I definetly not need it, I am far more interested into coding with pharo
and understanding pharo libraries and tools than generally debating
smalltalk. But if you want such list to discuss smalltalk be my guest.

"Hi,

This topic was discussed before and I do not want to elaborate more, but
given that you seem to not have been involved in that thread, I will write
one single comment.

We have no intention to insult anyone. At the same time, we also take the
freedom to choose the goals we want. We started from Smalltalk but our goal
is not to be a Smalltalk. We might end up being one for a while, but we
might as well not. Our goal is to reinvent software engineering. This
implies that we want to get to novel things that were not invented yet,
hence difficult to plan or predict. For example, we already have
indications of novel language models (like the new compiler, slots, new
debugger model), novel IDE (GT), novel VM (Spur and the up-and-coming
Sista) and more will come.

So, when you read "Smalltalk inspired" please interpret it as saying that
while we honor the giants on the shoulders of which we build now, we want
to invent the future.

Cheers,"

I understand your (plural) position on this because I have read that thread
, and like you I dont want to elaborate more on this since I don't want to
create a very long thread of people agreeing that they disagree which what
that thread ended up being. I merely stated my opinion you are more than
welcome to disagree.
horrido
2015-01-17 00:11:04 UTC
Permalink
I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to
the *Pharo Smalltalk Users* forum where I think it more properly belongs.

My original reasoning for choosing the *Pharo Smalltalk Developers* forum
was because I wanted to reach out to /the developer community who are a
vital part of the campaign/. But I suppose this forum should be reserved
strictly for Pharo-specific development issues.

The Pharo Smalltalk Users forum sounds more general in nature. That's where
we should be talking about Smalltalk and the PR campaign.


Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…
>
>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios &lt;

> kilon.alios@

> &gt; wrote:
>>
>>
>> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
>> ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>>
>> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the
>> official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team
>> agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed
>> here or anywhere on the internet.
>>
>> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It
>> offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call
>> my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python
>> coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came
>> out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything
>> remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in
>> several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>>
>> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
>> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its
>> a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>>
>> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired"
>> its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending
>> hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code ,
>> your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can
>> call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very
>> flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this,
>> its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>>
>> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk
>> implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy
>> and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious"
>> , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not
>> ambitious enough for you ?
>>
>> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
>> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever
>> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others,
>> especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will
>> dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far
>> more than Pharo currently is.
>>
>> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people
>> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
>> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
>> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
>> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does
>> not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of
>> those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages
>> (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython
>> could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even
>> more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of
>> Jython back in 2008.
>>
>> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has
>> been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
>> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we
>> live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo
>> never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I
>> wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it
>> may become.
>>
>>





--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4800113.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Ben Coman
2015-01-17 01:44:55 UTC
Permalink
thanks Richard.

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 8:11 AM, horrido <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to
> the *Pharo Smalltalk Users* forum where I think it more properly belongs.
>
> My original reasoning for choosing the *Pharo Smalltalk Developers* forum
> was because I wanted to reach out to /the developer community who are a
> vital part of the campaign/. But I suppose this forum should be reserved
> strictly for Pharo-specific development issues.
>
> The Pharo Smalltalk Users forum sounds more general in nature. That's where
> we should be talking about Smalltalk and the PR campaign.
>
>
> Marcus Denker-4 wrote
> > I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list

> >
> >> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios &lt;
>
> > kilon.alios@
>
> > &gt; wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
> >> ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
> >>
> >> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is
> the
> >> official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team
> >> agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed
> >> here or anywhere on the internet.
> >>
> >> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent.
> It
> >> offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call
> >> my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python
> >> coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came
> >> out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything
> >> remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced
> in
> >> several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
> >>
> >> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
> >> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its
> >> a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
> >>
> >> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired"
> >> its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending
> >> hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code ,
> >> your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can
> >> call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very
> >> flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this,
> >> its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
> >>
> >> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk
> >> implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy
> >> and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less
> ambitious"
> >> , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is
> not
> >> ambitious enough for you ?
> >>
> >> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
> >> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever
> >> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others,
> >> especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will
> >> dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts ,
> far
> >> more than Pharo currently is.
> >>
> >> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other
> people
> >> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
> >> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
> >> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
> >> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does
> >> not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation
> of
> >> those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages
> >> (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython
> >> could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and
> even
> >> more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of
> >> Jython back in 2008.
> >>
> >> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that
> has
> >> been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
> >> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we
> >> live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even
> Pharo
> >> never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I
> >> wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it
> >> may become.
> >>
> >>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4800113.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Tx

Le 17/1/15 01:11, horrido a écrit :
> I'm moving all discussions related to the Smalltalk Renaissance Program to
> the *Pharo Smalltalk Users* forum where I think it more properly belongs.
>
> My original reasoning for choosing the *Pharo Smalltalk Developers* forum
> was because I wanted to reach out to /the developer community who are a
> vital part of the campaign/. But I suppose this forum should be reserved
> strictly for Pharo-specific development issues.
>
> The Pharo Smalltalk Users forum sounds more general in nature. That's where
> we should be talking about Smalltalk and the PR campaign.
>
>
> Marcus Denker-4 wrote
>> I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…
>>
>>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios &lt;
>> kilon.alios@
>> &gt; wrote:
>>>
>>> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more
>>> ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>>>
>>> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the
>>> official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team
>>> agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed
>>> here or anywhere on the internet.
>>>
>>> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It
>>> offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call
>>> my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python
>>> coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came
>>> out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything
>>> remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in
>>> several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>>>
>>> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
>>> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its
>>> a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>>>
>>> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired"
>>> its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending
>>> hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code ,
>>> your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can
>>> call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very
>>> flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this,
>>> its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>>>
>>> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk
>>> implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy
>>> and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious"
>>> , why ? Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not
>>> ambitious enough for you ?
>>>
>>> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
>>> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever
>>> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others,
>>> especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will
>>> dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far
>>> more than Pharo currently is.
>>>
>>> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people
>>> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
>>> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
>>> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
>>> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does
>>> not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of
>>> those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages
>>> (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython
>>> could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even
>>> more popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of
>>> Jython back in 2008.
>>>
>>> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has
>>> been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
>>> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we
>>> live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo
>>> never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I
>>> wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it
>>> may become.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4800113.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Yes call it Pharo-Talk :)

Le 16/1/15 10:58, Marcus Denker a écrit :
> I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list

>
>> On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <***@gmail.com
>> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is
>> more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>>
>> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is
>> the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development
>> team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them
>> discussed here or anywhere on the internet.
>>
>> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that
>> diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but
>> I would not call my experience coding with pharo
>> radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be
>> the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts
>> and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But
>> nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts ,
>> languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer.
>>
>> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
>> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases.
>> Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>>
>> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk
>> inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by
>> spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by
>> forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you
>> Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot.
>> This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those
>> Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me
>> embarrassment, it shows me weakness.
>>
>> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern
>> Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the
>> Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling
>> Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other
>> language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ?
>>
>> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
>> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever
>> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of
>> others, especially when you base your success on their success. And
>> yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in
>> many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.
>>
>> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other
>> people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme
>> has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how
>> popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language
>> with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to
>> point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java
>> allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is
>> one of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype
>> when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal
>> to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at
>> best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008.
>>
>> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that
>> has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
>> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one
>> we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but
>> even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even
>> in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it
>> is, and not what it may become.
>>
>>
>
horrido
2015-01-16 19:56:10 UTC
Permalink
kilon.alios wrote
> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a
> really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.

Longevity is not a strategy for success. There are many old languages that
have been around forever, and they have never become mainstream. Python,
along with a handful of other languages, are exceptions.

Smalltalk has had 40 years to get popular. It almost achieved it in the
1990s, but IBM dropped the ball and Sun kicked their ass. The last 20 years
have been dismal for Smalltalk; it's all but a forgotten language. (Not so
much in the past month. ;-)


> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people
> mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been
> miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they
> will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously
> expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not
> help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of
> those
> languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages (2001),
> and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could
> become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more
> popular than Java at best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back
> in 2008.

Hype does not help if *all* it does is attract public attention. Hype helps
a great deal if it's backed up by tangible results; the product you're
hyping must deliver!

Hype is about growing mindshare from which springs many other benefits, /if
you play your cards right/.



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4800040.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:15:40 UTC
Permalink
There is an old vision paper and we will revisit it.

Stef

Le 16/1/15 09:44, kilon alios a écrit :
>
> "I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is
> more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"
>
> I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is
> the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development
> team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them
> discussed here or anywhere on the internet.
>
> I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent.
> It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not
> call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to
> python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it
> first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart
> from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has
> been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer
> and closer.
>
> It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most
> popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases.
> Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths.
>
> I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired"
> its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending
> hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code
> , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby
> can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me
> a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that
> believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows
> me weakness.
>
> I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern
> Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk
> philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk
> "less ambitious" , why ? Innovativing more than any other language
> have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ?
>
> I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would
> prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever
> makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of
> others, especially when you base your success on their success. And
> yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in
> many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.
>
> PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other
> people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has
> been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how
> popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language
> with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point
> out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java
> allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one
> of the oldest Java languages (2001), and there was tons of hype when
> the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to
> Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at
> best. Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008.
>
> I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that
> has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a
> competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one
> we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even
> Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30
> years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and
> not what it may become.
>
>
stepharo
2015-01-17 07:14:50 UTC
Permalink
+ 1

and you all can get an impact!


Le 16/1/15 07:26, Tudor Girba a écrit :
> It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there
> you might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of
> a sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we
> hoped for.
>
> In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the
> thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out,
> the Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different
> that we have a chance of reinventing software engineering.
>
> Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That
> we have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for
> giving up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer
> to reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend
> and the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard
> road ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting
> period in the Pharo history.
>
> I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is
> more ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the
> larger goal. Together, we will get there.
>
> Doru
>
> On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido <***@gmail.com
> <mailto:***@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project,
> strategically.
> On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join
> Redline. It would
> be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0.
> *We need
> Smalltalk on the JVM.*
>
>
> jamesl wrote
> > Hi Smalltalkers,
> >
> > Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it.
> > I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using
> Antlr4 as well
> > as cleaning up the
> > internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is
> dormant and I
> > have spun off 'stc' to contain
> > the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back
> into that
> > main.
> >
> > I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying
> across
> > the runtime library and writing
> > tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and
> underlying
> > code - which is hard to have too many people helping with.
> >
> > I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup
> (http://mywave.me) and
> > personal life but I really
> > am trying to find the time to push this along.
> >
> > I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this
> year and
> > all going well Redline will be
> > out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me.
> >
> > This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one
> JVM at a
> > time ;)
> >
> > - James.
> > Redline Smalltalk
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/InfoWorld-on-Redline-Smalltalk-tp4799612p4799830.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>
>
> --
> www.tudorgirba.com <http://www.tudorgirba.com>
>
> "Every thing has its own flow"
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