Discussion:
[Pharo-project] MPEG in Pharo depricated why?
(too old to reply)
John M McIntosh
2009-11-29 21:21:24 UTC
Permalink
Well I can't speak for the Pharo management, but let me run the hurdles for you.

(a) license, is of course an issue for some folks. I'll attach the mpeg3Plugin.bundle license
Technically I think this fails Pharo's license test. The OLPC folks ban it, so Viewpoints Inc funded me to
build a GStreamer plugin for EToys on the OLPC, that works well on linux/windows but is difficult to install on os-x.

(b) support.

Personally I think someone should harvest the Quicktime work that we did in Sophie. That
works on macintosh/windows, possible on Linux with some of the quicktime clone libraries?
In the past the argument has been oh then you have to install
Quicktime on Windows. But if you look around you'll notice *everyone* has installed iTunes for
Windows because *everyone* has an iPod. Oh and it stealth installs Quicktime to support iTunes.

(c) scope creep. I don't thinking, sound, video, dancing has been part of the "business apps" focus
for Pharo.



/*
*
* This file is part of libmpeg3
*
* LibMPEG3
* Author: Adam Williams <broadcast at earthling.net>
* Page: heroine.linuxbox.com
* Page: http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/mpeg3source.html (for Squeak)
*
LibMPEG3 was originally licenced under GPL. It was relicensed by
the author under the LGPL and the Squeak license on Nov 1st, 2000

This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
Lesser General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public
License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA

Also licensed under the Squeak license.
http://www.squeak.org/license.html
*/
Hi folks,
before I started to use Pharo (which I appreciate very much - many thanks all contributors!!),
I did some experiments with MPEG in Squeak.
Now want to continue.
I like to know why it's not contained in Pharo.
Searching keyword MPEG and Squeak I found only outdated stuff (on SmalltalkConsulting of John McIntosh as well, who seems to contribute to Pharo too)
and I was wondering that nobody seems to work with audio/video.
questions
(1) did you - Pharo key players - find MPEG code unsecure and decided to postpone for later reviewing?
or
(2) did you think that it has not to be part of standard Pharo SmallTalk distribution
and people may fileIn the related package from Non-Pharo Squeak?
and
(3) if I'm right with the last assumption, is there anyone who experienced MPEG under Pharo?
Thanks in advance
Johannes
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
Schwab,Wilhelm K
2009-11-29 23:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Speaking for myself only, my long-standing frustration with Squeak was the wide spread insistance that it *be* a toy. I never had a problem with people wanting to use it to make toys, but wanted to see Morphic used to simulate a user interface at least somewhat like what users had learned to expect over the past decades; in short, I wanted to see a tool slid under the toys. Enter Pharo.

When I think of "business applications," I can't help picturing horrid things centering on Visual Basic (whichever version is hype-compliant this week) and people running around speaking in buzz words. However, I do see a need for good GUI construction, relational database access (can't stand the blasted things personnally, but they sure have their uses), sockets, the ability to launch and contol external processes, and some multi-media capabilities.

Playing video is probably not as important as sound, and it is not nearly as important as sockets and database connectivity. However, I could easily envision displaying ultrasound clips and allowing a user to move around, select frames, etc. I would like to see Pharo get there eventually.

Bill



-----Original Message-----
From: pharo-project-bounces at lists.gforge.inria.fr [mailto:pharo-project-bounces at lists.gforge.inria.fr] On Behalf Of John M McIntosh
Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 4:21 PM
To: Johannes Rasche
Cc: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] MPEG in Pharo depricated why?

Well I can't speak for the Pharo management, but let me run the hurdles for you.

(a) license, is of course an issue for some folks. I'll attach the mpeg3Plugin.bundle license Technically I think this fails Pharo's license test. The OLPC folks ban it, so Viewpoints Inc funded me to build a GStreamer plugin for EToys on the OLPC, that works well on linux/windows but is difficult to install on os-x.

(b) support.

Personally I think someone should harvest the Quicktime work that we did in Sophie. That works on macintosh/windows, possible on Linux with some of the quicktime clone libraries?
In the past the argument has been oh then you have to install Quicktime on Windows. But if you look around you'll notice *everyone* has installed iTunes for Windows because *everyone* has an iPod. Oh and it stealth installs Quicktime to support iTunes.

(c) scope creep. I don't thinking, sound, video, dancing has been part of the "business apps" focus for Pharo.



/*
*
* This file is part of libmpeg3
*
* LibMPEG3
* Author: Adam Williams <broadcast at earthling.net>
* Page: heroine.linuxbox.com
* Page: http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/mpeg3source.html (for Squeak)
*
LibMPEG3 was originally licenced under GPL. It was relicensed by
the author under the LGPL and the Squeak license on Nov 1st, 2000

This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
Lesser General Public License for more details.

You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public
License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA

Also licensed under the Squeak license.
http://www.squeak.org/license.html
*/
Hi folks,
before I started to use Pharo (which I appreciate very much - many
thanks all contributors!!),
I did some experiments with MPEG in Squeak.
Now want to continue.
I like to know why it's not contained in Pharo.
Searching keyword MPEG and Squeak I found only outdated stuff (on
SmalltalkConsulting of John McIntosh as well, who seems to contribute to Pharo too) and I was wondering that nobody seems to work with audio/video.
questions
(1) did you - Pharo key players - find MPEG code unsecure and decided to postpone for later reviewing?
or
(2) did you think that it has not to be part of standard Pharo
SmallTalk distribution and people may fileIn the related package from Non-Pharo Squeak?
and
(3) if I'm right with the last assumption, is there anyone who experienced MPEG under Pharo?
Thanks in advance
Johannes
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
Stéphane Ducasse
2009-11-30 11:03:29 UTC
Permalink
Hi johannes
Post by John M McIntosh
Well I can't speak for the Pharo management, but let me run the hurdles for you.
(a) license, is of course an issue for some folks. I'll attach the mpeg3Plugin.bundle license
Technically I think this fails Pharo's license test. The OLPC folks ban it, so Viewpoints Inc funded me to
build a GStreamer plugin for EToys on the OLPC, that works well on linux/windows but is difficult to install on os-x.
If you can leave with LGPL then use it.
LGPL is less viral than GPL so this is not a total no and
in the long run it would be good to have a good MPEG support now
Post by John M McIntosh
(b) support.
Personally I think someone should harvest the Quicktime work that we did in Sophie. That
works on macintosh/windows, possible on Linux with some of the quicktime clone libraries?
In the past the argument has been oh then you have to install
Quicktime on Windows. But if you look around you'll notice *everyone* has installed iTunes for
Windows because *everyone* has an iPod. Oh and it stealth installs Quicktime to support iTunes.
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
Post by John M McIntosh
(c) scope creep. I don't thinking, sound, video, dancing has been part of the "business apps" focus
for Pharo.
I'm not sure that we should not have good sound, audio in the world of today. :)
So I will definitevily look at Sophie dev.
Stef
Post by John M McIntosh
/*
*
* This file is part of libmpeg3
*
* LibMPEG3
* Author: Adam Williams <broadcast at earthling.net>
* Page: heroine.linuxbox.com
* Page: http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com/html/mpeg3source.html (for Squeak)
*
LibMPEG3 was originally licenced under GPL. It was relicensed by
the author under the LGPL and the Squeak license on Nov 1st, 2000
This library is free software; you can redistribute it and/or
modify it under the terms of the GNU Lesser General Public
License as published by the Free Software Foundation; either
version 2.1 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
This library is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. See the GNU
Lesser General Public License for more details.
You should have received a copy of the GNU Lesser General Public
License along with this library; if not, write to the Free Software
Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA
Also licensed under the Squeak license.
http://www.squeak.org/license.html
*/
Hi folks,
before I started to use Pharo (which I appreciate very much - many thanks all contributors!!),
I did some experiments with MPEG in Squeak.
Now want to continue.
I like to know why it's not contained in Pharo.
Searching keyword MPEG and Squeak I found only outdated stuff (on SmalltalkConsulting of John McIntosh as well, who seems to contribute to Pharo too)
and I was wondering that nobody seems to work with audio/video.
questions
(1) did you - Pharo key players - find MPEG code unsecure and decided to postpone for later reviewing?
or
(2) did you think that it has not to be part of standard Pharo SmallTalk distribution
and people may fileIn the related package from Non-Pharo Squeak?
and
(3) if I'm right with the last assumption, is there anyone who experienced MPEG under Pharo?
Thanks in advance
Johannes
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
John M McIntosh
2009-11-30 14:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
I had worked on this a bit (Sophie clipboard, sophie quicktime graphics reader, macintosh navigation services) but.

(a) it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo? I think that is an open question.

(b) I couldn't find any WIndow's users to help test it. Perhaps they don't exist?

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
Stéphane Ducasse
2009-11-30 16:17:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by John M McIntosh
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
I had worked on this a bit (Sophie clipboard, sophie quicktime graphics reader, macintosh navigation services) but.
(a) it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo? I think that is an open question.
Is alien working on windows?
May be we could have FFI and Alien

FFI in the process of making sure that alien will work everywhere.
May be this is the best way to make sure that Alien will not make progress :)
Post by John M McIntosh
(b) I couldn't find any WIndow's users to help test it. Perhaps they don't exist?
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
John M McIntosh
2009-11-30 19:15:33 UTC
Permalink
Well what I need is some windows user to build a windows VM,
then install the Alien VMMaker additions, rebuild the VM and test to confirm it works or not.
Without a such effort it won't happen
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Post by John M McIntosh
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
I had worked on this a bit (Sophie clipboard, sophie quicktime graphics reader, macintosh navigation services) but.
(a) it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo? I think that is an open question.
Is alien working on windows?
May be we could have FFI and Alien
FFI in the process of making sure that alien will work everywhere.
May be this is the best way to make sure that Alien will not make progress :)
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
Henrik Sperre Johansen
2009-11-30 21:30:23 UTC
Permalink
I tried to generate one using the files provided at squeakvm.org, ran
into some issues:
- First run, lots of undefined errors in Interpreter. "Resolved" this by
using sqVirtualMachine.c/h from \Cross\plugins\IA32ABI
- Second run, quite a few of the VMMaker-generated methods using nil as
a parameters in code generated by cCode: strings. Changed these to null.
- Third run, error in ia32abicc.c, MEM_TOP_DOWN undeclared.

And that's where I stopped for the evening, any pointer to things I'm
doing wrong would be appreciated..

Cheers,
Henry
Post by John M McIntosh
Well what I need is some windows user to build a windows VM,
then install the Alien VMMaker additions, rebuild the VM and test to confirm it works or not.
Without a such effort it won't happen
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Post by John M McIntosh
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
I had worked on this a bit (Sophie clipboard, sophie quicktime graphics reader, macintosh navigation services) but.
(a) it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo? I think that is an open question.
Is alien working on windows?
May be we could have FFI and Alien
FFI in the process of making sure that alien will work everywhere.
May be this is the best way to make sure that Alien will not make progress :)
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh<johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
John M McIntosh
2009-12-01 00:33:25 UTC
Permalink
Henry

Ok, thank you for looking into this.

(a) the sqVirtualMachine.c/h is a alter version from the standard version which is
awaiting being promoted to product if all works out.

(b) nil versus null
nil is defined both by the macintosh carbon headers, and by the Objective-C runtime system
so . null is defined in sq.h and by SLANG when it created the *.c Obviously we can alter
the slang code for IA32ABI to use null

(c) MEM_TOP_DOWN

#if defined(_MSC_VER) || defined(__MINGW32__)

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/303444

That's a microsoft define, so it appears we are missing an include somewhere.

At the top of ia32abicc.c,
it says this which *implies* MEM_TOP_DOWN should be in windows.h ?

#if defined(_MSC_VER) || defined(__MINGW32__)
# include "windows.h" /* for GetSystemInfo & VirtualAlloc */
Post by Henrik Sperre Johansen
I tried to generate one using the files provided at squeakvm.org, ran
- First run, lots of undefined errors in Interpreter. "Resolved" this by
using sqVirtualMachine.c/h from \Cross\plugins\IA32ABI
- Second run, quite a few of the VMMaker-generated methods using nil as
a parameters in code generated by cCode: strings. Changed these to null.
- Third run, error in ia32abicc.c, MEM_TOP_DOWN undeclared.
And that's where I stopped for the evening, any pointer to things I'm
doing wrong would be appreciated..
Cheers,
Henry
Post by John M McIntosh
Well what I need is some windows user to build a windows VM,
then install the Alien VMMaker additions, rebuild the VM and test to confirm it works or not.
Without a such effort it won't happen
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Post by John M McIntosh
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
Yes but that someone is busy so if someone else would publish the code in the inbox the someone would be happy
but thanks for the point.
I had worked on this a bit (Sophie clipboard, sophie quicktime graphics reader, macintosh navigation services) but.
(a) it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo? I think that is an open question.
Is alien working on windows?
May be we could have FFI and Alien
FFI in the process of making sure that alien will work everywhere.
May be this is the best way to make sure that Alien will not make progress :)
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh<johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <johnmci at smalltalkconsulting.com> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================
Torsten Bergmann
2009-11-30 16:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by John M McIntosh
it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo?
I think that is an open question.
FFI not in the core - but maybe in the dev-image.
Alien is AFAIK still not avaible for all major platforms
Post by John M McIntosh
(b) I couldn't find any WIndow's users to help test it. Perhaps they don't exist?
I use pharo/squeak on windows but I'm not a sophie user. There are other "pharo on windows" users too ... so just post and I'm sure you will find someone who is able
to try out things.

Even if windows may not be the typical dev platform for most of us it is still
the largest consumer platform for commercial apps.

Bye
T.
--
Sarah Kreuz, die DSDS-Siegerin der Herzen, mit ihrem eindrucksvollen
Deb?talbum "One Moment in Time". http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/musik
Stéphane Ducasse
2009-11-30 16:47:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Post by John M McIntosh
it requires FFI in the image, did we decide FFI and Alien should be in Pharo?
I think that is an open question.
FFI not in the core - but maybe in the dev-image.
but having FFI in the core (not the minimal one) is a way to make sure that a lot of code can take advantge of the underlying platform.
Post by Torsten Bergmann
Alien is AFAIK still not avaible for all major platforms
Post by John M McIntosh
(b) I couldn't find any WIndow's users to help test it. Perhaps they don't exist?
I use pharo/squeak on windows but I'm not a sophie user. There are other "pharo on windows" users too ... so just post and I'm sure you will find someone who is able
to try out things.
Even if windows may not be the typical dev platform for most of us it is still
the largest consumer platform for commercial apps.
Bye
T.
--
Sarah Kreuz, die DSDS-Siegerin der Herzen, mit ihrem eindrucksvollen
Deb?talbum "One Moment in Time". http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/musik
_______________________________________________
Pharo-project mailing list
Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...