Discussion:
[Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Sebastian Sastre
2012-10-17 11:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Hey there,

I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.

Have something to share?

What's your story with it?

What got you excited? why it worked for you?

sebastian

o/

pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
Mariano Martinez Peck
2012-10-17 12:05:13 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Sebastian Sastre <
Post by Sebastian Sastre
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
Hi. One of things that people outside of the community was most impressed
from the stuff I show/write is how we can serialize stacks/debuggers and
move them to another image. This is a combination of a lot of stuff, but
basically, a great dynamic language, with decent reflection capabilities,
stack reified from the language side, and cool libraries that take that
into account.
Some links about this:

http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/moving-contexts-and-debuggers-between-images-with-fuel/
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/reviving-ci-test-failures-in-local-machine/

Good luck!
Post by Sebastian Sastre
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
--
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121017/d5b5b801/attachment.html>
Marcus Denker
2012-10-17 12:16:45 UTC
Permalink
Hi. One of things that people outside of the community was most impressed from the stuff I show/write is how we can serialize stacks/debuggers and move them to another image. This is a combination of a lot of stuff, but basically, a great dynamic language, with decent reflection capabilities, stack reified from the language side, and cool libraries that take that into account.
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/moving-contexts-and-debuggers-between-images-with-fuel/
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/reviving-ci-test-failures-in-local-machine/
What I am most happy about is that we started (slowly) a feedback loop: Improving something gets easier because of an improvement we did.

For me, this was one of the reasons to do Pharo... to not always destroy every improvement by saying: "No, this is not good enough".

It is sad that especially intelligent people are very good at seeing the faults, but not realizing that building a feedback loop is more important
than being perfect with the first iteration...

Marcus

--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Sebastian Sastre
2012-10-17 13:13:51 UTC
Permalink
fantastic

feedback loop

absolutely key

sebastian

o/
Post by Marcus Denker
Hi. One of things that people outside of the community was most impressed from the stuff I show/write is how we can serialize stacks/debuggers and move them to another image. This is a combination of a lot of stuff, but basically, a great dynamic language, with decent reflection capabilities, stack reified from the language side, and cool libraries that take that into account.
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/moving-contexts-and-debuggers-between-images-with-fuel/
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/reviving-ci-test-failures-in-local-machine/
What I am most happy about is that we started (slowly) a feedback loop: Improving something gets easier because of an improvement we did.
For me, this was one of the reasons to do Pharo... to not always destroy every improvement by saying: "No, this is not good enough".
It is sad that especially intelligent people are very good at seeing the faults, but not realizing that building a feedback loop is more important
than being perfect with the first iteration...
Marcus
--
Marcus Denker -- http://marcusdenker.de
Sean P. DeNigris
2012-10-20 14:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marcus Denker
building a feedback loop is more important
than being perfect with the first iteration...
Yes, yes, yes!!! Take a small step and error correct... it's the only way!!!



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4652125.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sebastian Sastre
2012-10-17 13:13:04 UTC
Permalink
great point!

sebastian

o/
Post by Sebastian Sastre
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
Hi. One of things that people outside of the community was most impressed from the stuff I show/write is how we can serialize stacks/debuggers and move them to another image. This is a combination of a lot of stuff, but basically, a great dynamic language, with decent reflection capabilities, stack reified from the language side, and cool libraries that take that into account.
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/01/19/moving-contexts-and-debuggers-between-images-with-fuel/
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com/2012/07/25/reviving-ci-test-failures-in-local-machine/
Good luck!
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
--
Mariano
http://marianopeck.wordpress.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121017/9c3d6db0/attachment.html>
Damien Cassou
2012-10-17 12:37:39 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 1:43 PM, Sebastian Sastre
Post by Sebastian Sastre
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
FWIW: http://www.pharo-project.org/about/success-stories
--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-17 12:43:40 UTC
Permalink
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes

Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.


So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user".? And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.


So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.


It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.

The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.


At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.


My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.


In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.






________________________________
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?

Hey there,

I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.

Have something to share?

What's your story with it?

What got you excited? why it worked for you?

sebastian

o/

pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121017/17e639dc/attachment.html>
Damien Cassou
2012-10-17 13:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Hi Dimitris,
Post by dimitris chloupis
I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
that's a nice story and I wish you success. That would be a win/win
situation for everyone.

I'm wondering why you want to be compatible with both Squeak and Pharo
though. It looks like you will need a lot of additional time for this.
If that's a high priority for you, you may still want to do a working
prototype in one and then make it compatible with both.
--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill
Sebastian Sastre
2012-10-17 13:22:30 UTC
Permalink
awesome Dimitri

visual processing is the most powerful part in our brain (dedicated to senses) so whatever you do, if isn't visual is wasting opportunities

thanks for sharing, great point and intriguing project

child's dreams are the best

sebastian

o/
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user". And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121017/18304a79/attachment.html>
Stéphane Ducasse
2012-10-18 16:56:43 UTC
Permalink
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.

Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user". And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
Alexandre Bergel
2012-10-18 17:00:16 UTC
Permalink
That's awesome!

I am sure you have screenshots :-) Please send!

Alexandre
Post by Stéphane Ducasse
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user". And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
--
_,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:
Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu
^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;.
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-18 18:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Hey Stef

You mean this ? -> http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html

Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to make addons for blender. So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender. Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python methods and classes. But that is for much later.


Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other, with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender window could be minimised.?


This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not interested in 3d graphics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk

That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now , just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.



________________________________
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?

for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.

Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and
Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Post by dimitris chloupis
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego
brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user".? And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to
Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
Post by dimitris chloupis
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and
the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
Post by dimitris chloupis
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121018/982edc1c/attachment.html>
Stéphane Ducasse
2012-10-18 19:20:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? -> http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a really small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as blender and script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender. Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other, with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender window could be minimised.
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not interested in 3d graphics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now , just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user". And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-18 19:42:23 UTC
Permalink
yeap that would be great because that would mean I could share the same window with blender and that I would have immediate access to all blender functions . But that would require some hackery beyond my level of skill. Who know maybe one day , I will be able to do just that.



________________________________
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 22:20
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? -> http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a really small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as blender and script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender. Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other, with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender window could be minimised.?
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not interested in 3d graphics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now , just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user".? And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to? Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121018/c2473848/attachment.html>
phil
2012-10-18 20:27:49 UTC
Permalink
Bryce 7, Hexagon2.5, and Daz Studio 3D over here :-)

Not sure I want Pharo to mix with those... but they make nice Pharo
backgrounds for sure.

Phil

2012/10/18 dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Post by dimitris chloupis
yeap that would be great because that would mean I could share the same
window with blender and that I would have immediate access to all blender
functions . But that would require some hackery beyond my level of skill.
Who know maybe one day , I will be able to do just that.
------------------------------
*From:* St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
*To:* Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <
thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
*Sent:* Thursday, 18 October 2012, 22:20
*Subject:* Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? ->
http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Post by dimitris chloupis
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import
blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to
pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to
make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a
really small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as
blender and script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much
more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve
this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender.
Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python
methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision
is that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the
other, with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or
procedural generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc
and seeing the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with
Softimage ICE this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos".
But still could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the
blender window could be minimised.
Post by dimitris chloupis
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are
not interested in 3d graphics.
Post by dimitris chloupis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via
blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now
, just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually
build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
Post by dimitris chloupis
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <
thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Post by dimitris chloupis
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with
blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My
latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator.
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use
GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic
GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type
GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with
the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I
was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me
that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I
was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of
course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on
visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit
exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep
things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them.
Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum (
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming
enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one
of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have
python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very
easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a
user". And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread
just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a
smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port
to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side ,
suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But
we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make
it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands
with some C and diving inside Blender source.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already
implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I
could port all the features both offered to python just me and another
coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of
keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it
to Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas
I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of
potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both
blender and squeak/pharo.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and
flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will
have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I
think it will be a double win.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that
it may play an important role in the future and of course there are
libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like
to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and
the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making
Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on
something like that.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <
pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how
exciting this is.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121018/bbaa6f87/attachment.html>
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-18 20:30:00 UTC
Permalink
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D



________________________________
From: "phil at highoctane.be" <phil at highoctane.be>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 23:27
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?


Bryce 7, Hexagon2.5, and Daz Studio 3D over here :-)

Not sure I want Pharo to mix with those... but they make nice Pharo backgrounds for sure.

Phil


2012/10/18 dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>

yeap that would be great because that would mean I could share the same window with blender and that I would have immediate access to all blender functions . But that would require some hackery beyond my level of skill. Who know maybe one day , I will be able to do just that.
Post by dimitris chloupis
________________________________
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 22:20
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? -> http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a really small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as blender and script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course
visual coding is much more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender. Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other, with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender window could be minimised.?
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not interested in 3d
graphics.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now , just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator. http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs. It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored
there with the rest of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I follow with my entire life not just coding.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum ( http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts ) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user".? And of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side , suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to
understand. But we came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with some C and diving inside Blender source.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to? Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think it will be a double win.
Post by dimitris chloupis
Post by dimitris chloupis
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr" <pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention
mainly about pharo and amber
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121018/b4cc5991/attachment.html>
Esteban A. Maringolo
2012-10-18 21:10:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by dimitris chloupis
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D
Just for reference, I started with Caligari 24 in an Amiga 500 back in '94,
then used trueSpace from version 1 to version 4 in Windows. Also played with
POVray and 3D studio 4 (MSDOS).

Today Blender is like a thousand levers machine to me. I simply can't
understand it. But I have it installed, just in case the enlightenment
comes. :)

Regards!




--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4651890.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-19 09:11:41 UTC
Permalink
You stroke 2 sensitive spots there for me, Truespace and Amiga 500. Till this day I consider Amiga 500 the best computer ever existed though I only owned an Amstrad CPC 6128 sadly Green screen monitor , making my eyes see all pink :D cause my father found Amigas too expensive. Till this day I disagree.


I have used Truespace much later on windows and I loved its icon based interface and ease of use. Lovely 3d program.

Blender is nuclear power compared to those old relics. 3d is without any exaggeration one of most technically complex fields of computing. So you feelings are absolutely normal. If you really want to learn blender and look for the easy way , then your best shot is blendercookie.


It has tons of blender tutorials , they are loads of fun and all free ---> http://cgcookie.com/blender/

I find till this day video tutorials the best way to learn blender. They may be slow , but they build confidence and give you a lot more satisfaction than randomly trying on your own.



________________________________
From: Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo at gmail.com>
To: pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Friday, 19 October 2012, 0:10
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D
Just for reference, I started with Caligari 24 in an Amiga 500 back in '94,
then used trueSpace from version 1 to version 4 in Windows. Also played with
POVray and 3D studio 4 (MSDOS).

Today Blender is like a thousand levers machine to me. I simply can't
understand it. But I have it installed, just in case the enlightenment
comes. :)

Regards!




--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4651890.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121019/10f680ba/attachment.html>
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-19 09:36:09 UTC
Permalink
take a look at this link too ---> http://cgcookie.com/blender/get-started-with-blender/

?If you need any further help send me your email at thekilon at yahoo.co.uk I have several other recommendations but I dont want to derail this mailing list with out of topics .




________________________________
From: Esteban A. Maringolo <emaringolo at gmail.com>
To: pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Friday, 19 October 2012, 0:10
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D
Just for reference, I started with Caligari 24 in an Amiga 500 back in '94,
then used trueSpace from version 1 to version 4 in Windows. Also played with
POVray and 3D studio 4 (MSDOS).

Today Blender is like a thousand levers machine to me. I simply can't
understand it. But I have it installed, just in case the enlightenment
comes. :)

Regards!




--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4651890.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121019/2ce510bf/attachment.html>
Igor Stasenko
2012-10-18 22:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by dimitris chloupis
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D
- 3D Studio, Max, Rhinoceros 3D, Maya, POV.. (and some raytracers)..
did 1 plugin for Max, and some exporters..
never used blender though..
and it was long ago :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
________________________________
From: "phil at highoctane.be" <phil at highoctane.be>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 23:27
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Bryce 7, Hexagon2.5, and Daz Studio 3D over here :-)
Not sure I want Pharo to mix with those... but they make nice Pharo backgrounds for sure.
Phil
2012/10/18 dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
yeap that would be great because that would mean I could share the same
window with blender and that I would have immediate access to all blender
functions . But that would require some hackery beyond my level of skill.
Who know maybe one day , I will be able to do just that.
________________________________
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 22:20
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? ->
http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import
blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to
pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to
make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a really
small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as blender and
script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much
more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve
this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender.
Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python
methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is
that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other,
with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural
generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing
the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE
this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still
could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender
window could be minimised.
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not
interested in 3d graphics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via
blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now
, just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually
build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with
blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My
latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator.
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use
GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs
that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs.
It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest
of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was
introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that
I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very
impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course
pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual
side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my
lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal
and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I
follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum (
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts
) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming
enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one
of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python
why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to
learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user". And
of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral
and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a
smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to
Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side ,
suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we
came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it
evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with
some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already
implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I
could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder
in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the
project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to
Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I
have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of
potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both
blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and
flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will
have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think
it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it
may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries
like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make
Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and
the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making
Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on
something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr"
<pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-19 09:43:56 UTC
Permalink
wow, that many people here ! you too ! Great stuff. I actually started doing 3d with 3d studio MAX 1. Yeah I played abit with Rhinoceros and POV. Though my big love has been Softimage XSI till blender stole me away.


Great I may need your assistance if I have any question 3d and coding wise.?

________________________________
From: Igor Stasenko <siguctua at gmail.com>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Friday, 19 October 2012, 1:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
good to know I am not the only 3d dude around here :D
- 3D Studio, Max, Rhinoceros 3D, Maya, POV.. (and some raytracers)..
did 1 plugin for Max, and some exporters..
never used blender though..
and it was long ago :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
________________________________
From: "phil at highoctane.be" <phil at highoctane.be>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 23:27
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Bryce 7, Hexagon2.5, and Daz Studio 3D over here :-)
Not sure I want Pharo to mix with those... but they make nice Pharo backgrounds for sure.
Phil
2012/10/18 dimitris chloupis <thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
yeap that would be great because that would mean I could share the same
window with blender and that I would have immediate access to all blender
functions . But that would require some hackery beyond my level of skill.
Who know maybe one day , I will be able to do just that.
________________________________
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 22:20
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Post by dimitris chloupis
Hey Stef
You mean this ? ->
http://forum.world.st/WaveFront-File-importer-on-Pharo-td4640327.html
Well not exactly a blender importer , but yes it could be used to import
blender models. By the way , my goal is not to bring models of blender to
pharo , but more to use pharo to "script" blender, as python is used now to
make addons for blender.
Yes I got it and this is a cool idea. Ideally I would love to have a really
small image with a vm that we can embed directly in software as blender and
script them :)
Post by dimitris chloupis
So I try to replace python with pharo. Of course visual coding is much
more than that, but this is none the less my first step. I try to achieve
this with triggering python command via sockets from pharo to blender.
Ideally I could generate st methods and classes for all blender python
methods and classes. But that is for much later.
Still it could be handy to display 3d blender data in pharo. My vision is
that both blender and pharo window will be displayed one next to the other,
with the user using the pharo window doing visual coding or procedural
generation of 3d objects , materials, textures , particles etc and seeing
the final result in blender window. If you are familiar with Softimage ICE
this is more or less the field of application for "Ephestos". But still
could be handy to do some displaying in pharo as well so that the blender
window could be minimised.
This is a video with Softimage ICE. Quite interesting even if you are not
interested in 3d graphics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=do1kzR6gVYk
That could be extended even to blender game engine , so that pharo via
blender can be used to make 3d games. So yeah sky is the limit. But for now
, just basic sockets to trigger simple python eval commands and gradually
build from there and see how far I can go with this idea.
From: St?phane Ducasse <stephane.ducasse at inria.fr>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr; dimitris chloupis
<thekilon at yahoo.co.uk>
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 19:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
for your information jb did a blender importer and you can play with
blender 3d objects in Pharo.
Stef
Post by dimitris chloupis
I am a blender developer , using python to make blender addons. My
latest complete one is Gyes and Random Material and Texture Generator.
http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Extensions:2.6/Py/Scripts/System/Gyes
Since I was a child I was dreaming of making a system that would use
GUIs like the one that I saw in many spaceship movies, fluid futuristic GUIs
that could issue way more complex commands than our modern window type GUIs.
It was a childs dream, filed as too ambitious and stored there with the rest
of too far fetched child dreams. And it was early this year that I was
introduced to Smalltalk. I really like python but it was obvious to me that
I needed something a lot more. It was that itch I had to scratch. I was very
impressed with morphic and squeak and the whole enviroment and of course
pharo. I was looking for a live coding enviroment with an ephasis on visual
side and I think smalltalk fit like a glove for me. Morphic fit exactly my
lego brick logic, I am a very synthetic person I like to keep things minimal
and simple and synthesize complex structures out of them. Its a workflow I
follow with my entire life not just coding.
So I started a thread in Blenderartists forum (
http://blenderartists.org/forum/showthread.php?250375-A-Visual-Programming-Language-and-a-new-GUI-for-Blender-your-thoughts
) about how people saw the possibility of implementing a visual programming
enviroment for blender with a very flexible GUI. I thought it would be one
of those threads that none really cared and people would say "we have python
why bother with a visual coding enviroment at all, python is very easy to
learn" or "why should I care about coding at all I am merely a user".? And
of course I had such reactions but to my surprise the thread just went viral
and people seems very excited with the ideas of Ephestos.
So we sat down with another developer using Morphic code from a
smalltalk coder , that he made for python and pygame and we tried to port to
Blender libraries instead. Code wise it went much better in our side ,
suprisingly enough both he and found Morphic very easy to understand. But we
came across some severe bugs and limitations at blender side that make it
evident that if I wanted to keep this in python I had to dirty my hands with
some C and diving inside Blender source.
It also became more and more evident that squeak and pharo already
implemented many of the ideas I had for Ephestos, and there was no way I
could port all the features both offered to python just me and another coder
in our free time. So I did the logical thing. Droped the idea of keeping the
project pure python and now I have slowly started to porting it to
Squeak/Pharo and I am using sockets to communicate with blender.
The goal is of course Visual Coding together with several other ideas I
have for RAD. Its not something bound by goals but more an exploration of
potential. If the project progress well, I think it will be a win for both
blender and squeak/pharo.
At one side Blender developer will be exposed to the true power and
flexibility of smalltalk, at the other hand the smalltalk community will
have access to such a powerful amazing 3d application as blender. So I think
it will be a double win.
My preference towards pharo has to do with Nativeboost , I think that it
may play an important role in the future and of course there are libraries
like Athens that I would love to explore but ideally I would like to make
Ephestos compatible with both squeak and pharo.
In essense squeak and pharo have been an inspiration for Ephestos and
the true driving force for making it reality and I can see myself making
Ephestos a life project because Its just pure fun for me working on
something like that.
From: Sebastian Sastre <sebastian at flowingconcept.com>
To: "pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr"
<pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 October 2012, 14:43
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Hey there,
I'm collecting some stories from smalltalkers to tell people how exciting this is.
Have something to share?
What's your story with it?
What got you excited? why it worked for you?
sebastian
o/
pd: I'm going to mention mainly about pharo and amber
--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121019/30a50f0d/attachment.html>
Sean P. DeNigris
2012-10-20 14:05:15 UTC
Permalink
my goal is... to use pharo to "script" blender
Awesome! That would be a killer app :)

I've used Blender a bunch, but being spoiled by Smalltalk, I feel suffocated
in environments (most apps) that are not live, direct, dynamic,
turtles-all-the-way-down... The great thing about REST being "cool" is that
many services that would have been trapped behind crappy UIs are now free to
be wrapped... yet I digress...

Cheers,
Sean



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4652123.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2012-10-20 14:55:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sean P. DeNigris
The great thing about REST being "cool" is that
many services that would have been trapped behind crappy UIs are now free to
be wrapped... yet I digress...
Yeah, and all you need is ZnClient ;-)


--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
http://stfx.eu
Smalltalk is the Red Pill
Sean P. DeNigris
2012-10-20 14:57:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sven Van Caekenberghe
Yeah, and all you need is ZnClient ;-)
Yes! ZnClient is my "go to" now. I was happy to jettison curl via OSProcess
now that ZnClient is working so well :)

Thank you Sven for a great service!!!

Sean



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651655p4652133.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Torsten Bergmann
2012-10-17 14:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Pick one ...


STORY 1:
========

What I like most is that I do not rely on IDE vendors or tools
to do measure things like:

TestCase allSubclasses size

inspect things like:

Account allInstances collect: [:each | each value > 10 ]

or script my environment:

TestCase allSubclasses do: [:each | each removeFromSystem ]

Try all this in any of the other "static" environments.
And yes - one can shoot itself in the foot:

true become: false

but I like the freedom.


STORY 2:
=======
In any program environment you have to use a debugger. In Smalltalk you
can just save the image and continue the next work day on exactly the
same point you left.

In other environments you usually close the IDE in the evening and
start to debug the program the next day again until you are at
this point, have the stack and variables in the same state.
Lots of wasted time and developer resources in static world...

STORY 3:
========
"Rethinking the typing" as you can see
http://astares.blogspot.de/2006/08/rethinking-typing.html

STORY 4:
========
When I tell people that Smalltalk is not a language - just
a dynamic object system with a language built on top of it.
A method, a class ... anything is an object.

So if you need additions you just implement them without
waiting for the next language spec or vendors.

Need traits, interfaces, namespaces, ... just add them.

Embed other languages: just add them (see Helvetica)
http://astares.blogspot.de/2009/11/helvetia-embedding-languages.html)

New control structures? Just implement them. An example:
Pascal hat a REPEAT UNTIL. C/C++/Java language family and
Smalltalk does not have such a construct.

The difference: in Smalltalk I can just add a new
method #repeatUntil: to BlockClosure if I really need it.

STORY X:
========
...
sebastian
2012-10-17 14:58:07 UTC
Permalink
hahaha XD

great stuff

dynamic vs. static isn't an issue anymore

dynamic won hands down already and years ago

the thing now is to expand people's vision of what can be done with it

and these are good points (to talk to engineers)

the audience has other people too so I need more stories from the trenches :)

sebastian

o/


----- Original Message -----
From: "Torsten Bergmann" <astares at gmx.de>
To: pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:19:26 AM
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?

Pick one ...


STORY 1:
========

What I like most is that I do not rely on IDE vendors or tools
to do measure things like:

TestCase allSubclasses size

inspect things like:

Account allInstances collect: [:each | each value > 10 ]

or script my environment:

TestCase allSubclasses do: [:each | each removeFromSystem ]

Try all this in any of the other "static" environments.
And yes - one can shoot itself in the foot:

true become: false

but I like the freedom.


STORY 2:
=======
In any program environment you have to use a debugger. In Smalltalk you
can just save the image and continue the next work day on exactly the
same point you left.

In other environments you usually close the IDE in the evening and
start to debug the program the next day again until you are at
this point, have the stack and variables in the same state.
Lots of wasted time and developer resources in static world...

STORY 3:
========
"Rethinking the typing" as you can see
http://astares.blogspot.de/2006/08/rethinking-typing.html

STORY 4:
========
When I tell people that Smalltalk is not a language - just
a dynamic object system with a language built on top of it.
A method, a class ... anything is an object.

So if you need additions you just implement them without
waiting for the next language spec or vendors.

Need traits, interfaces, namespaces, ... just add them.

Embed other languages: just add them (see Helvetica)
http://astares.blogspot.de/2009/11/helvetia-embedding-languages.html)

New control structures? Just implement them. An example:
Pascal hat a REPEAT UNTIL. C/C++/Java language family and
Smalltalk does not have such a construct.

The difference: in Smalltalk I can just add a new
method #repeatUntil: to BlockClosure if I really need it.

STORY X:
========
...
Pavel Krivanek
2012-10-17 16:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Hi Sebastian,

this is the way I use to present Smalltalk:
- open Xerox Smalltalk-80 image (using Hobes)
- show this UI, how scrollbars work, how you have to specify window
regions, basics of window management etc. Tell them few words about
visit of Steve Jobs in Xerox and how it influenced the next
development of personal computers. Almost nobody had an opportunity to
see it in action so you will gain their attention.
- then mention the date in Transcript (31 May 1983). Tell them about
an image, VM, snapshoting, that you resume the program after almost 30
years on different computer architecture in the different millenium
:-)
- tell that Smalltalk-80 is a combination of OS, IDE and programming
language and that you will show some examples
- show 3+4 - print it
- Pen example - do it, open Browser and show them this method
- use explain command on "Pen" - open a class browser on it
- then show: MessageTally spyOn: [Pen example], profiling is quite
interesting property in such old environment
- evaluate 1/0, open debugger, change value of dividend to 2 and
continue with the evaluation
- evaluate 1/0 again, open debugger and then change the method to
return 0 instead of rising the error, continue. Then do several next
divisions by zero to show that you changed behavior of the whole
system.
- evaluate Display inspect and show inspector, inspecting of instance
variables and their modification.
- evaluate String allInstances size
- evaluate (String allInstances asSortedCollection: [:a :b | a size <=
b size]) last inspect (it doesn't have detect: message)
- show an example of become: message, that you changed all references
to the object.
- show the browser capabilities - senders, implementors,
implementations of used messages.
- tell them that all you did you did on system without attached source
codes, that the code you have seen and changed were all decompiled
- finally ask yourself: when Smalltalk-80 was able to do all this
things in the year 1983, what it can do now? ;-)

Cheers,
-- Pavel
Post by sebastian
hahaha XD
great stuff
dynamic vs. static isn't an issue anymore
dynamic won hands down already and years ago
the thing now is to expand people's vision of what can be done with it
and these are good points (to talk to engineers)
the audience has other people too so I need more stories from the trenches :)
sebastian
o/
----- Original Message -----
From: "Torsten Bergmann" <astares at gmx.de>
To: pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2012 11:19:26 AM
Subject: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?
Pick one ...
========
What I like most is that I do not rely on IDE vendors or tools
TestCase allSubclasses size
Account allInstances collect: [:each | each value > 10 ]
TestCase allSubclasses do: [:each | each removeFromSystem ]
Try all this in any of the other "static" environments.
true become: false
but I like the freedom.
=======
In any program environment you have to use a debugger. In Smalltalk you
can just save the image and continue the next work day on exactly the
same point you left.
In other environments you usually close the IDE in the evening and
start to debug the program the next day again until you are at
this point, have the stack and variables in the same state.
Lots of wasted time and developer resources in static world...
========
"Rethinking the typing" as you can see
http://astares.blogspot.de/2006/08/rethinking-typing.html
========
When I tell people that Smalltalk is not a language - just
a dynamic object system with a language built on top of it.
A method, a class ... anything is an object.
So if you need additions you just implement them without
waiting for the next language spec or vendors.
Need traits, interfaces, namespaces, ... just add them.
Embed other languages: just add them (see Helvetica)
http://astares.blogspot.de/2009/11/helvetia-embedding-languages.html)
Pascal hat a REPEAT UNTIL. C/C++/Java language family and
Smalltalk does not have such a construct.
The difference: in Smalltalk I can just add a new
method #repeatUntil: to BlockClosure if I really need it.
========
...
Sven Van Caekenberghe
2012-10-17 17:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Great description, Pavel !
Post by Pavel Krivanek
- open Xerox Smalltalk-80 image (using Hobes)
I would want to try that myself ;-)

Where can I get this, please ?

--
Sven Van Caekenberghe
http://stfx.eu
Smalltalk is the Red Pill
Esteban A. Maringolo
2012-10-17 19:00:12 UTC
Permalink
I think that the examples related with stuff invented 30 years ago will
depend on the audience.
Most programmers, young ones in particular, have a deep lack of knowledge
about the history of technology , they barely know about the tools they use
everyday, and they don't have interest in learning about them either. So
saying to them that Smalltalk invented BitBlt, is like talking them about
punched cards. At least that is my experience.

About the points, one thing that I found really useful is doing actual TDD
or programming in the debugger, sometimes I get impressed myself when while
having an open debugger I add an instance variable in another Browser (or
even in the debugger), and have such modification already available to all
the instances I have in the context of debugging (and the image, of course).

Showing how productive you can be is something that also gets the interest
of newcomers, unfortunately being productive is not building greater things
with the same or less effort, but building the same with less efforts, hence
the proliferation of one-liners and viral code snippets to attract naive
programmers or people looking for something different, and are lazy to
embrace something with a steep learning curve.

Another good point is that when you develop using Smalltalk you (or at
least I do) feel like you're inside your system, you program "from the
inside", it is an immersive experience.
With other tools, even with really advanced IDE's you never get that
immersion, you feel like moving levers, and manipulating a machine, and
advanced and most of the times decent machine, but the experience is less
"humane" (using Tudor's use of the word) and not immersive.

My points are not based Pharo stories, but are backed by 10 years of
Smalltalk use, starting with Squeak, and passing through VW,
VisualSmalltalk, VAST and Dolphin.

I use Pharo, and enjoy it, though I'm not Kent Beck.

Best regards,

--
Esteban M.






--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/what-is-your-pharo-story-tp4651692p4651732.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
Stéphane Ducasse
2012-10-18 17:02:20 UTC
Permalink
+ 1
Post by Esteban A. Maringolo
I think that the examples related with stuff invented 30 years ago will
depend on the audience.
Most programmers, young ones in particular, have a deep lack of knowledge
about the history of technology , they barely know about the tools they use
everyday, and they don't have interest in learning about them either. So
saying to them that Smalltalk invented BitBlt, is like talking them about
punched cards. At least that is my experience.
Jordi Delgado
2012-10-18 18:56:56 UTC
Permalink
I agree, but OTH my experience is somewhat different.

When you teach thisContext and some well chosen examples of what you can do with it,
students usually are amazed. Then you challenge them to do the same in other languages,
and they have no clue of where to start (you know, Java and C++, maybe some Python).

The really great coup de grace is when you tell them that that was invented 40 years
ago. And that the Binding example they thought was so cool is from a 1981 magazine
article (Peter Deutsch's "Building Control Structures..." from Byte aug.'81).

Smalltalk has its merits, and it deserves a place among XXIst century advanced languages.
But it also has a history. And a beautiful one, if you ask...

Bests,

Jordi
+ 1
Post by Esteban A. Maringolo
I think that the examples related with stuff invented 30 years ago will
depend on the audience.
Most programmers, young ones in particular, have a deep lack of knowledge
about the history of technology , they barely know about the tools they use
everyday, and they don't have interest in learning about them either. So
saying to them that Smalltalk invented BitBlt, is like talking them about
punched cards. At least that is my experience.
dimitris chloupis
2012-10-18 19:02:49 UTC
Permalink
personally I found it very depressing when I saw the age of smalltalk. At first it looked me so innovative that I thought it was way more recent than my language of choice at the time python. I even thought that it copied a lot of python. It was a shock to find out its true age.


Now I got this feeling that software technology is moving backward . I want my illusion back please :D?



________________________________
From: Jordi Delgado <jdelgado at lsi.upc.edu>
To: Pharo-project at lists.gforge.inria.fr
Sent: Thursday, 18 October 2012, 21:56
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] what is your pharo story?

I agree, but OTH my experience is somewhat different.

When you teach thisContext and some well chosen examples of what you can do with it,
students usually are amazed. Then you challenge them to do the same in other languages,
and they have no clue of where to start (you know, Java and C++, maybe some Python).

The really great coup de grace is when you tell them that that was invented 40 years
ago. And that the Binding example they thought was so cool is from a 1981 magazine
article (Peter Deutsch's "Building Control Structures..." from Byte aug.'81).

Smalltalk has its merits, and it deserves a place among XXIst century advanced languages.
But it also has a history. And a beautiful one, if you ask...

Bests,

Jordi
+ 1
Post by Esteban A. Maringolo
I think that the examples related with stuff invented 30 years ago will
depend on the audience.
Most programmers, young ones in particular, have a deep lack of knowledge
about the history of technology , they barely know about the tools they use
everyday, and they don't have interest in learning about them either. So
saying to them that Smalltalk invented BitBlt, is like talking them about
punched cards. At least that is my experience.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.pharo.org/pipermail/pharo-dev_lists.pharo.org/attachments/20121018/f9d4ec23/attachment.html>
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...